Should Hogan have jobbed to Macho at WMV?

[Mickey Massuco]

I was thinking about how much more interesting the WWE would have been. Business tanked not too shortly after doing what they did, and Warrior never got the proper boost from Hogan anyway.

If Macho retains, you could have Hogan draw on another circuit before turning heel in 1991 and making mega money. Meanwhile, the WMVII retirement match and stips are done at WM6 for the title. That would still be a huge draw.

I think this also makes Macho Man and Hogan much more interesting and better able to draw in the early 90s, when the WWE was struggling. Makes things feel less predictable from that point forward too.

 

[BruiserBrody]

The WWF was probably doomed to angle downward business wise regardless as they had burnt through every established star they could get their hands on. Savage's post Hogan feuds with Duggan and Dusty were fairly on par with what he would have been left doing had he stayed champ.
Piper came back in the Fall, but he wouldn't have been looking to do any losing so a series w/ Macho would have to be a bunch of CO and DQ ending. Prichard was talking on a recent STWW about how Bruce's act was going around the horn on B shows as part of the Dusty/Savage matches and the arenas were populated with empty seats.

Hogan probably does okay with the Bossman yet (they drew huge - Corny says Bubba was pulling 20K payoffs some nights) and then the Zeus trash, but then Hogan is left floundering a bit and the magic Hulkamania aura has now failed against Andre in 88 and Macho in 89. If he becomes the Babe Ruth novelty act he can do some wacky things to draw a little bit (like don Demolition's war paint for a run of six man matches) but the highs aren't going to be as high as they could be.

Hogan would almost have to be put in a gimmick match w/ Mike Tyson as his partner or something to kick up some momentum for Mania 6.

---
I suppose I would suggest an alternative of Macho staying face instead where he could at least do proper programs with Bad News Brown, Rick Rude and maybe even new monster Quake at the end of 89. He and Hogan can sprinkle tag matches with the Powers of Pain, Brain Busters, etc.

 

[King Kamala]

Yeah. I think Hogan’s main event run spikes downward if he is not involved or on losing end of two straight WrestleManias. Hogan was still hot in his 2nd World Title run. It was really only ‘91ish when his popularity was clearly in decline.

Hard to say how business would have gone since WWF never had a long term heel champion in that era but my gut feeling is to answer no for this question even if I think creatively it could have been good.

 

[snuffbox]

I like Brody's idea of keeping Macho Man face. Since WM5 was going to be in the little convention center in Atlantic City, save the Mega Powers explosion for WM6 at the dome. Do Savage/Bad News & Hogan/Boss Man or a tag at WM5. Would still sell out the smaller venue and do fine on ppv. Keep building Warrior through 90 and do the dream match with Hogan at WM7.

If they're worried about ppv buys, do a Savage-Hogan all babyface match. Lots of runins, Hogan saves Macho from Bad News Brown, Savage returns the favor with the Twin Towers, yadda yadda. Savage retains with a roll up, they both stay hot, handshake of mega powerness ends the show.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

I voted no mainly on the basis that I don't know if it would've helped the WWF on the whole business-wise enough. Keep in mind that they were only 5 years removed from the first WrestleMania and were still pretty red hot as a company but NWA/WCW was gaining some momentum of their own.

Would Savage's win/babyface turn be enough to offset Hogan's potential dive in popularity? I just don't think so. At best, you get some more interesting matchups and variations of wrestlers together but as Kamala said, it really wasn't until 1991 that Hogan's popularity was going down pretty hard and this may've just sped up that process. 2-3 years down the road by '91 or '92, would Vince have been able to re-package Hogan as the superhero babyface if Warrior's WWF Title run fails or Savage ended up underperforming gate wise?

 

[King Kamala]

It's probably smark blasphemy to say this but I don't know if babyface Macho Man has the juice to handle a successful multi-year World Title run. Even he probably would have admitted he was a stronger heel. Don't get me wrong, he was a damn good babyface but you need to be a superhero to handle a multi-year World Title run.

Blasphemy x2...I think an interesting discussion would be "Should Hulk Hogan have gone over at WrestleMania VI?" given how Warrior's run really, to me, kind of begins WWF's decline in early '90s. Hulk's semi main event match at SummerSlam '90 is way more over than Warrior's main event match. I would say have the same epic match at VI but except at the end have Hulk win in controversial, flukey (but not cheating) fashion, swap Warrior's Spring/Summer '91 booking into Spring/Summer '90 (except minus Undertaker I guess) and try and run it back again at VII where Warriror cleans. But then that messes up the Career Vs Career Match at VII and who knows how it effects Ric Flair & Undertaker! Sometimes I'm just glad things happened the way they did.

Except Warrior probably should have never been WWF World Champion. I maintain that title run severely damaged if not outright ruined his career and it hurt WWF's popularity.

 

[snuffbox]

Disagree on both counts. Savage, with the bright colors, catchphrases, high flying moves, etc, would've sustained a longer face title run.

And Warrior's title run not succeeding wasn't much of his own fault. He was over going into WM6. He should've worked with Earthquake; instead, McMahon chose to give the biggest feud to Hogan. And the Rude match at Summerslam was poorly built. It was dumb to not have Rude go over, even by countout, at the preceeding SNME.

 

[King Kamala]

I think Warrior needed at least another year of seasoning and working with top heels before toppling Hogan. I was being pedantic saying he should have never been WWF World Champion but IMO, he DEFINITELY shouldn't have been champion that early in his career. And like I said, Hulk Hogan didn't lose a significant amount of juice until the '91. Only problem and main reason why I think they pulled the trigger when they did is because it was really best option that they had cause of their thinning roster. I think the Zeus angle bombing and Mike Tyson getting knocked the f out by Buster Douglas really rattled them and caused them to pull the trigger on attempting to transition Warrior into top guy.

Only other feasible option I see us WWF wanting to do for a big angle is Brutus turning on Hulk four year earlier and NOBODY without the last name Leslie would've wanted to see them.

 

[Mickey Massuco]

damn i'm the only one to vote yes.

It's probably smark blasphemy to say this but I don't know if babyface Macho Man has the juice to handle a successful multi-year World Title run. Even he probably would have admitted he was a stronger heel. Don't get me wrong, he was a damn good babyface but you need to be a superhero to handle a multi-year World Title run.

Blasphemy x2...I think an interesting discussion would be "Should Hulk Hogan have gone over at WrestleMania VI?" given how Warrior's run really, to me, kind of begins WWF's decline in early '90s. Hulk's semi main event match at SummerSlam '90 is way more over than Warrior's main event match. I would say have the same epic match at VI but except at the end have Hulk win in controversial, flukey (but not cheating) fashion, swap Warrior's Spring/Summer '91 booking into Spring/Summer '90 (except minus Undertaker I guess) and try and run it back again at VII where Warriror cleans. But then that messes up the Career Vs Career Match at VII and who knows how it effects Ric Flair & Undertaker! Sometimes I'm just glad things happened the way they did.

Except Warrior probably should have never been WWF World Champion. I maintain that title run severely damaged if not outright ruined his career and it hurt WWF's popularity.

I think Macho definitely had the juice to have a multi-year run. He was over, could work with anyone and the mainstream possibilities are endless. Imagine a movie featuring Randy Savage as a street tough with a heart of gold battling it out with cruel environmentalist businessman (this was the 80s, when people that cared for the environment were seen as evil) Dolph Lundgren, with a blowoff match at Summerslam 1989. That shit would break all the records.

I don't think Hogan going over Warrior is so ridiculous in hindsight though. Warrior was unreliable backstage and difficult to work with. There were plenty of big name heels that could have gone over Hogan at Slam/SS 1990 like Rude, Perfect, etc. Keep in mind that a lot of these other scenarios would better compliment Flair's arrival in 1991.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I mean, I voted yes, but I'll also admit that that was mostly a function of me hating on Hogan.

 

[BruiserBrody]

I went over Macho's matches as champ this AM, He worked Dibiase from April-Sept, then did a run w/Andre that the Giant seemed to win most of the matches. Then in November it was a little more random as Akeem, Haku and Rick Rude were sprinkled in with Bad News Brown. Once he turned on Hogan in Feb, he worked News and Akeem in heel vs heel matches, then moved on to a run w/Warrior that took him into Mania. So they really maxxed out his drawing power to the hilt given who was on the roster. Bossman was pretty much the only heel who didn't get a run as they saved Bossman for Hogan (and as I mentioned it worked as that did huge business.)

Savage/Hogan went from April until October, with Savage switching to Duggan from then on. By then Hogan was starting a financially failed run with Perfect that takes us to Mania. So the downturn really begins before Warrior gets the belt (Even Mania 6 was a disappointment $$$ wise which still hurts my insides to comprehend since that was peak AMAZIN-A-BALLZ to a kid watching at the time.) Warrior then gets the re-heated Rude feud and Hogan salvages some houses w/ Quake as that program draws out into 1991.

 

[geniusMoment]

I voted no. You could make a legit argument that they shouldn't have turned Savage heel for 5, but then I don't think you should've done the Hogan-Savage match at Mania 5. The most money was always in a heel Savage against Hogan, so whether it was 5 or 6, that was going to be the match. And Hogan going over was the right call.

I think the big problem following Mania 5 is Hogan didn't have the huge draw to go against him. Previously you had Piper, Andre and then Savage to drive business against him. I guess in an ideal world Flair leaves NWA in 89 and becomes that guy, as Hogan was much hotter than in 91/92, so the feud would've been much better.

 

[BruiserBrody]

If we want to just go the "Dumb but Awesome Fantasy Booking", you have Savage retain and then at the next taping Ricky Steamboat returns and declares he's beaten Savage before and will again.

 

[BUTT]

Gonna say yes but only because I think they could have made more money by having Savage massively cheat to win at Mania and then having Hogan chase the title at house shows for five months culminating in a Summerslam rematch where Hogan wins it back.

 

[King Kamala]

I agree that Savage should have definitely had at least one win in that '89 feud. They made a lot of money with the wrestling equivalent of Harlem Globetrotters Vs Washington Generals, think of how much more they could have made if the feud was even mildly competitive.

 

[BruiserBrody]

I agree that Savage should have definitely had at least one win in that '89 feud. They made a lot of money with the wrestling equivalent of Harlem Globetrotters Vs Washington Generals, think of how much more they could have made if the feud was even mildly competitive.

Macho did beat him via count out around the horn to help drag things out until October.

 

[geniusMoment]

Honestly, I kind of think things were going to go down by 1990 no matter what. There is a time limit for everything in wrestling. 1990 would be 5 full years since Mania 1. I kind of think no matter what (Hogan or Savage winning, Flair jumping etc...) that business was going to drop. Fans were ready for the next period in wrestling.

 

[King Kamala]

'80s boom period was honestly approximately 2x as long as peak Attitude era. We should be more surprised that it didn't end a lot earlier than it did.

 

[snuffbox]

With better booking on McMahon's part, it could have gone into 1991, at least as far as WM7 venue was concerned.

 

[BruiserBrody]

'80s boom period was honestly approximately 2x as long as peak Attitude era. We should be more surprised that it didn't end a lot earlier than it did.

I think about this from time to time as it relates to the business overall. The BOOM ended for the AWA in early 1986 when their bottom fell out rapidly in a $$$ situation I'm not sure was very really fleshed out by any historian. They were drawing fine one day and the next they were DOA w/ talent,

WWF was considered in media trade magazines to be going downhill in 1986 as the Lauper stuff waned and now it was just those silly wrestlers. Mania 3's build helped recharge the roster and got it to Mania 5 where the buyrate was boffo. Then things went down....

JCP was wounded badly by Magnum's accident and 1987 was a slow crawl into the business dying. Vince shot the corpse on Thanksgiving night, although no one was quite aware of it yet.

WCCW limped along in 1986 and went through ownership changes to keep it alive long enough to merge with Jarrett into the USWA.
Florida was dead as soon as Dusty took off in 84, Georgia was dead in July 84, Portland ran a few big shows but was always close to shutting down as Owens had money and was old. Watts was also fairly wounded by late 1986. I've seen theories that his poaching of WCCW talent (Gang, Freebirds, Iceman, etc) was done more to sweeten any buyout deals he might get.

The BOOM was really done in 1985 in its own way, but the WWF had enough pyro and ballyhoo to keep up appearances until 1990. I am fascinated to see the MSG cards go from selling out almost every month (even w/Backlund) to struggling to hit 15K by the end of the 80s, but we can blame cable TV and other factors in that as well.

My casual wrestling buddies ask me once in a while how my "grab a hold" wrestling I like ever drew. I then point out the window to our boring ass city and tell them to picture a world w/o cable, wi-fi, arcades, etc and suddenly dropping 4 bucks to see some goofy wrasslers doesn't seem so preposterious.

 

[snuffbox]

There's a lot to consider in @BruiserBrody 's post above. Unless I'm mistaken, the suggestion is that there were two successive booms in pro wrestling at that time. A territory boom in the late 70s-early 80s and the Hulkamania boom. The first of the double boom saw various NWA territories, the AWA in the upper midwest, and WWWF all doing well, making money, and developing a couple generations of major stars. Vince McMahon then used his inheritance to start gobbling up those territories' best assets and add the rock n roll/celebrity stuff to it, making the second, and even bigger, boom period. The rock n wrestling thing was big enough to carry some of those dwindling territories through much of the 80s but, as Brody mentioned, that little bit of benefit was vastly outweighed by damage done, and numerous other factors. He mentions the rise of cable tv and other entertainment outlets. And, for Crockett, Magnum's car wreck.

There are some other causes for the various falls of territories. The oil bubble burst of the mid-80s was Watt's biggest factor. Along with other things, it didn't do Fritz Von Erich any favors either. Why did the AWA collapse so quickly? Gas prices may have been a factor. There may have been a limit to how much talent could be lost and rebuilt. I don't think cable can be blamed for Gagne's problems as they got on ESPN. Could Verne Gagne have had financial problems or indiscretions still unknown? Could the election of 1984 have been a factor? If he supported Mondale too much, he may have blown a considerable amount of money and possibly lost a powerful protector, as it were, and others may have been less inclined to help him as well. Minnesota sports as a whole wasn't acing any genius tests in the mid-late 80s. That's also the era where the Vikings gave Dallas a dynasty in exchange for Herschel Trumper.

Overall, the availability of so many other entertainment media is probably the biggest factor. Poor booking choices certainly exacerbated that, with McMahon, Herd, Gagne, etc. Remarkably, dumb booking re: Hulk Hogan contributed to the end of 3 boom periods for 3 companies: AWA, WWF, and WCW. The first one was Gagne's own fault but the other two included him being allowed to mark himself up and bring the companies' fortunes down with it.

 

[BruiserBrody]

The Verne/Hogan sticking point seemed to really be Hogan being Inoki's guy while Verne was a Baba loyalist. Had Verne tossed Hogan enough dough to switch, he'd have been AWA champ in an instant, Vince paid Hogan well, but also had the Inoki loyalty, giving Hogan over for tours which went until around Mania 1, where he cut Inoki off of most of the big talent right after Inoki had loaned Vince a reported million dollars IIRC to help finance Mania and the expansion overall.

Vince was making moves to try and make a stab at taking over Japan too, but that fell by the wayside.

Verne not wanting a "gimmick" world champ is probably overstated as he had Mad Dog Vachon, Mighty Igor and Dick the Bruiser as champs in the past. Not to mention not only was Crusher a multi time champ, he was also the AWA's top guy while Verne/Bockwinkel spent 12 years combined as perennial champions.

 

[snuffbox]

Bockwinkel himself had a gimmick. He played the erudite type plus had Heenan as manager. The idea that the AWA was just characterless mat grappling is myth.