Nuking the Japanese. Cool or not cool?

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The only justification of nuking a country is simply that we were at war, and when one wants to actually win a war, it involves fucking annihilating the enemy as quickly and horribly as possible. That's it. Spare me the political motivations against Russia and the cuddly lifesaving excuses. It was a new bangbang that'd fuck 'em up good.

This is pretty much my sentiment exactly.

When you fight a war you should be targeting military targets as much as possible. Massacring civilians isn't always effective and even when it is it leads to future problems that just aren't worth it.

The Brits learned this from fire bombing Duran (IIRC) as part of the plan to make Germany surrender via just air strikes...After the non military targets netted an un-Godly civilian death total


Overall just a inhuman war all around

 

[vivisectvi]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Yeah, because this was a thread that needed to be bumped..

 

[DrVenkman PhD]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

THAT's the comment Brody was bitching about? This thread isn't even closed. You need to relax brother man.

 

[snuffbox]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

I believe it was Iran Barkley that firebombed Duran.

 

[vivisectvi]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

THAT's the comment Brody was bitching about? This thread isn't even closed. You need to relax brother man.

Seriously. Dumbassery, thy name is Brody.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

THAT's the comment Brody was bitching about? This thread isn't even closed. You need to relax brother man.

Seriously. Dumbassery, thy name is Brody.

Stay on topic, the rest of the board is designed to point out what a fool I am.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kreca/kreca6.1.1.html

Officially, the reason an expansionist, resource-poor Japan attacked the headquarters of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii without warning on Sunday, Dec. 7th, 1941, was to quickly forestall any US potential interference in Tokyo's drive to seize and retain the resource-rich possessions of the USA, Britain, Holland and France in the south Pacific Ocean. On surface, this is true. But to paraphrase famed British statesman Benjamin Disraeli, what lay "behind the scenes?"

Since the 1920s, the Soviets planned and hoped for a USA-Japan war because they believed such a conflict (one that they knew the USA would likely win) would help create a large Asian power vacuum which could then be quickly filled by Communism. The elimination of significant Japanese military, diplomatic and economic influence in the region, which dated back to the 1880s and was expanded by Japan's humiliating and conclusive military defeat of Russia in 1905, would give the Reds the opportunity they wanted. And thanks to FDR and Stalin, they got it.

On Nov. 18, 1941, Secretary Morgenthau sent to Secretary of State Cordell Hull a long memorandum drafted by Assistant Secretary White describing US terms for peace with Japan. These terms were so severe that White and Currie knew Japan would never accept them. Japanese Foreign Minister Togo Shigenori, one of the most moderate members of the Japanese government, recalled after receiving the Morgenthau-White-Hull memo, "I was utterly disheartened, and felt like one groping in darkness. The uncompromising tone was no more than I had looked for; but I was greatly astonished at the extreme nature of the contents."

An aide to Navy Secretary Frank Knox, Vice Admiral Francis Beatty, revealed in 1954:

"Prior to December 7th, it was evident even to me... that we were pushing Japan into a corner. I believed that it was the desire of both President Roosevelt and Prime Minister Churchill that we get into the war, as they thought the Allies could not win without us and our efforts to cause the Germans to declare war on us failed. The conditions we imposed upon Japan — to get out of China, for example — were so severe that we knew that that nation could not accept them. We were forcing her so severely that we could have known that she would react toward the United States. All her preparations in a military way — and we knew their overall import — pointed that way."

Exactly a week after this memo was issued, FDR's Secretary of War, Henry Stimson, wrote in his diary some two weeks before Pearl Harbor, recalling a cabinet meeting discussing the problems with Japan. He wrote:

"There the President...brought up entirely the relations with the Japanese. He brought up the event that we were likely to be attacked, perhaps [as soon as] next Monday, for the Japanese are notorious for making an attack without warning and the question was what should we do. The question was how we should maneuver them into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves."

Sir Oliver Lylleton, Churchill's war production minister, knew all of Churchill's and FDR's plans and decisions to force the USA into the war. In a June 20, 1944 speech to members of the American Chamber of Commerce in London, he stated:

"America provoked Japan to such an extent that the Japanese were forced to attack Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty on history, even to say that America was forced into the war."

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Just watched a History Channel piece that may make me sway my vote on the justification of using nuclear attacks. The documentary made a solid argument that Japan didn't surrender due to the nukes necessarily, but the fact that all of a sudden 3 million angry land hungry russian soldiers were kicking their ass in China and that coupled with the US's bombing raids and supply cut offs made the Empire throw in the towel.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

"Remember Pearl Harbor!" was once printed out in huge, white chalked letters on the Owensville High school's sidewalk. The prankster's graffiti was discovered on the morning of December 7, 1939. 'Fateful Forecast' is found on page 191 in Frank Edwards book; "STRANGE WORLD"

Anybody here actually ever go see the Arizona?

Crazy to think about the sailors trapped Poseidon Adventure style and ending up in basically an inescapable giant coffin til they died many days later.

I just found out on Veteran's day that my great uncle was a POW and participated in the Bataan Death March, really brought all this way close to home.

 

[BorneAgain]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The Hardcore History podcast has a great show (Logical Insanity) examining the entire history of bombing campaigns in the first two world wars and concluding that the question should be one of about the justification of any morale/terror bombing of civilians not simply Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

As destructive as Fat Man and Little Boy were, after reading the descriptions of the results of firebombing, its a bit harder to say that was fine, but the Atomic Bomb was too much.

 

[snuffbox]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Agent Orange: Great chemical weapon or the greatest chemical weapon?

 

[Agent of Oblivion]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

No way it's greater than mustard gas

 

[Agent of Oblivion]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Top five chemical weapons:

1. Mustard Gas. The quintessential chemical weapon.
2. Diphosgene. Developed to dissolve gas masks.
3. Zyklon B. Would be higher, but too specific.
4. Sarin. Aum Shinrikyo, baby!
5. Agent Orange. Cool name. Also a band.

 

[snuffbox]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

I forget, does mustard gas continue to cause cancer & kill the next generation of those exposed (be they the people of SE Asia or the children of American veterans)?

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Does plutonium taste good on a hotdog?

 

[Agent of Oblivion]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

I forget, does mustard gas continue to cause cancer & kill the next generation of those exposed (be they the people of SE Asia or the children of American veterans)?

Ok maybe Agent Orange is 4th.

 

[snuffbox]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Good compromise!

 

[bigolsmitty]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

VX was robbed (not the poster)

 

[bigolsmitty]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Also give some love to phosgene and lewisite (smells like geraniums so you get a pleasant aroma before you dies).

 

[BlackFlagg]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

VX was robbed (not the poster)

maybe it lost points for use in a Michael Bay movie? Though it was probably his best movie...

 

[BruiserBrody]

Re: Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

A neat factoid I never heard before just now: The Japanese pilot who sunk the Arizona was a confirmed casualty soon after while attacking Wake Island. That's kind of some Hollywood shit.

I'm excited for "Devil at my Heels" becoming a movie. Oddly enough the WW2 Vet who wrote that book had his story retold in another book and that is what Hollywood is basing the movie on instead of from the source itself.

http://www.amazon.com/Devil-My-Heels-Olympians-Astonishing/dp/0062118854

 

[DrVenkman PhD]

Yeah, because this was a thread that needed to be bumped..

 

[Precious Roy]

I VOTED NOT COOL BUT WITH A LITTLE MORE PERSPECTIVE I NOW LEAN TOWARDS COOL BEANS

 

[MarvinisaLunatic]

Japan gets their revenge by way of all the radioactive crap from Fukashima finally getting to the US.

 

[tekcop]

I'm sure they're really digging the whole situation.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Yeah, because this was a thread that needed to be bumped..

We stumbled on some good discussion. Tread just needs a new name. WW2 discussion or something.

 

[KOAB]

I VOTED NOT COOL BUT WITH A LITTLE MORE PERSPECTIVE I NOW LEAN TOWARDS COOL BEANS

 

[Precious Roy]

http://theweek.com/article/index/238378/the-us-militarys-top-secret-tsunami-bomb-from-world-war-ii

shockedhamster.gif

 

[snuffbox]

Thread to watch in 2014

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?



This is sort of correct. It was convenient that Germany surrendered when it did as it allowed the Allies to focus solely on the Japanese aggressor instead of the persistent German Army. The War in Europe was a real true grind and the allies were pressured several times to call a truce w/ Germany due to a lack of break troughs.

Eisenhower was greatly questioned by others in the military for his tactics and strategy and the allies took huge losses in human life due to it. (Example Ike wanted a broad attack across Germany, not an arrow like assault that may have allowed the allies to piece through Germany's heart to Berlin quicker and before the Russians, Ike's stubborn resolve lead to Hitler being able to counterstrike one final time as the stretched out forces left a hole that became "The Battle of the Bulge" through a rugged forest area where the Allies felt Hitler wouldn't consider attacking through, so it was not fortified despite various allied reports of a German build up) More lives were lost by the Allies in that one battle than Gen McArthur suffered in his brilliantly executed Pacific War plan (IIRC).

That would not have been the case had we invaded Japan, and McArthur was saving up supplies and men for that very plan and was basically figuring on a million deaths suffered just based on the Japanese defensive fortifications that had stalled Allied efforts Island to Island. McArthur was furious when he was abruptly told of the Atomic bomb and its imminent use since he was not in the "Needs to know" circle, despite being among the top 5 leaders of the Allied War effort.

So anyway, Germany surrenders and 2 months or so later the atomic bomb is ready and the Russians are planning a land grab of Eastern Asia but have not formally declared war on Japan. After nuke #1 drops, Hirohito amazingly still refuses to surrender,but Russia then choses to declare war on Japan, seeing its defeat being imminent. So a few days later nuke #2 is dropped (IIRC both cities were papered by the Army 1st to tell citizens to retreat, so its not like the US just slaughter civilians without regard.) and Hirohito finally surrenders, but feels Japan lost with honor because it was technology that defeated them, not a lack of will and resolve to fight.

So the nuclear assault served 2 purposes, it finished Japan's war effort and saved 800,000 lives or more on both sides, and it helped show Mother Russia that America is ready to whip some ass if those commie bastards want to get it on.

There was some sentiment in the US forces that since they had all those troops and weapons over in Europe already, that we might as well start fighting Russia right off and end another problem, but those opinions were not welcome and it lead to Gen Patton being silenced for his rabble rousing on that topic. McArthur, for one, was against it and he even prepared to ship US boys home from Japan quicker than the US government wanted too and that helped led the US right into another disaster in the Korean conflict 4 or 5 years later.

End rant.

Most of my posts aren't as cringey as I had feared, but I certainly lost my mind at certain points in the discussion.

I was raging a little reliving some of the early parts of this thread.
---

New personal info:
I had a distant cousin die in WW2 while inside of a tank.
My great uncle was a para-trooper in France 4 days after D-day.
His brother was a POW and was in the Bataan Death March. He had wounds/scars but lived until 1991. I was too young to know enough to get whatever info he would've been willing to share. I've tried to find info online but the best I've done was an unsearchable PDF database of the Bataan defenders.

--
Just read a story this weekend about one of the US guerrillas in the Philippines who lead attacks from 42-45 and helped keep much of the islands unstable for the Japanese conquerors. MacArthur didn't want to share the glory, so he downplayed the dude's efforts as much as possible.

---
I'm trying to get into a WW1 rabbit hole now and some of the early stories are pretty wild. The French went to war as if it was still the 1800s. They wore uniforms with bright red on them (easy target) and marched in columns, so the Germans mauled them with machine guns and caused thousands of quick casualties.
One of the countries (Austria/Hungary maybe?) were still widely using black powder loaders. The Russians had more men then guns, so they had to wait for casualties, then picked up weapons and went at it, etc. Plus the whole deal where Germany, Britain and Russia had leaders who were cousins, giving the whole mess a family connection, complete with unformal letters being passed between them where they called one another nick names instead of their political titles.