Old School Observations/Questions Thread 2020

King Kamala

Integral Poster
And there wasn't even a blowoff to the Vince is an insane bastard angle. He went over The Undertaker in that Buried Alive match at Survivor Series '03 then kind of disappeared for almost all of '04-'05 before coming back to build for the match with HBK at WrestleMania 22.

I'm mildly surprised Vince didn't put himself in a match at WrestleMania XX (although we did get the ego stroking open with him, Shane, and whatever Shane's oldest son is) but maybe he had enough respect for MSG/the grandiosity of the milestone to not put himself in a goofy stuntshow match?
 

strummer

Integral Poster
Kinda funny how rarely discussed it is how terrible wwe was in 2003. Mostly, 95, 99' and current stuff. 2003 was God awful. 2002 was real bad but at least there was the Smackdown 6. Raw was dreadful in 2003 and SD was somehow even worse with that interminable Vince v Stephanie storyline that lasted from post Mania 19 all the way to October.
 

King Kamala

Integral Poster
I thought '03 was universally agreed upon as the worst year in WWE history that didn't involve a murder or a pandemic? I feel like its crappiness is fairly extensively discussed! To me, that was the year where WWE eradicated whatever goodwill there was leftover from Monday Night War era.

Hell, I stopped following for a few years during the buildup to WrestleMania XIX (although now I recognize that the show itself is PRETTY GOOD) cause product sucked. I started following casually again in late '05/early '06 when Smackdown! moved to Friday Nights when I embraced my high school loser, accidental straight edge status. But I wouldn't say I REALLY got into rasslin again outside of a few bursts of interest until the early 2010s but I digress.

2004 and 2005 may have been worse than '03 but at that point from what I've seen on the Network but by then, WWE had clearly signified that they were in a rebuilding era. 2002-03 WWE has similar vibes and energy to 1998-'99 WCW. Like "Oh no! We've got all of this talent on the roster and we still suck!"
 
2004 is better, I think, but obviously has not aged well. It has my favorite blatant example of HHH trying to leech off someone's heat with the Eugene feud. The shows were just way more fun to watch in 2004 for me. 2005 was fine for me until the draft, when they had to reheat everyone again on different shows. Eddie had a great year that gets overshadowed by his death. Angle, Shawn, and Edge firing on all cylinders. One Night Stand.
 
I bought more shows in 2002 than any other year because there was some really good stuff buried everywhere. Backlash with HHH/Hogan on top and the worst Austin/Taker match in history was easier to take being on the same show as Edge/Angle, RVD/Eddie, and Kidman/Tajiri. Some good 2001 leftovers.

2003 died with Booker's push, but the angriest I ever got at a show was Summerslam. Fuck that year.
 

King Kamala

Integral Poster
I feel like history will redeem '01 WWF somewhat and show that the good (slightly) outweighed the bad. I'd compare it to Season 9 of The Simpsons. Yeah it's after the peak era and there's some astoundingly bad stuff but a lot of really good stuff too. Failure of the InVasion sticks out a brutally swollen thumb but let's not WWF didn't have limited resources to deal with most of the WCW A listers still tied up with Turner contracts. And judging by how '02-'03 went, maybe InVasion would have been EVEN WORSE if Goldberg, NWO, etc were involved.
 

Fall of Epic

Epic Reine
Hottest of takes: I think '03 is better than '02. I think '02 was absolute garbage outside of the Smackdown 6 until Summerslam. '03 wasn't great but had John Cena starting to take off, Jericho/HBK, and badass unmasked Kane (for a week or two) among other things. Royal Rumble and Survivor Series are also pretty good PPVs in that year, not to mention my all-time favorite Survivor Series match taking place during this period.
 

King Kamala

Integral Poster
I remember in my remedial math class junior year of high school ('05-'06), everyone agreed that they stopped watching when Kane lost his mask. I was baffled. All of the horrible stuff WWE did in the early '00s and THAT'S your line in the sand?

That's prime evidence that Kane was most popular wrestler amongst the scrubs in my middle/high schools. Closely followed by Goldberg with Triple H, Steve Austin, and BikerTaker rounding out Top 5. You would think that would make Armageddon 2003 a highly talked about event but not so. Kane lost his mask months before!
 

Fall of Epic

Epic Reine
They really did have something with unmasked Kane in '03 and they fumbled it in weeks time. It remains one of the biggest misfires of any wrestling promotion in the 00's. Dude should have been pushed to the moon as an unstoppable tyrant but of course the McMahons cannot help themselves and had to insert Shane to punk him out EVERY WEEK on TV. I'm sure Bruce Prichard is harping on his podcast how "WHY WAS EVERYONE UPSET WITH THAT FEUD???? KANE WON EVERY MATCH!". He sure did but did both times by the skin of his teeth, didn't look dominate and the aforementioned being made to look like shit on Raw during the rivalry.
 

snuffbox

Integral Poster
Hottest of takes: I think '03 is better than '02. I think '02 was absolute garbage outside of the Smackdown 6 until Summerslam. '03 wasn't great but had John Cena starting to take off, Jericho/HBK, and badass unmasked Kane (for a week or two) among other things. Royal Rumble and Survivor Series are also pretty good PPVs in that year, not to mention my all-time favorite Survivor Series match taking place during this period.

The HBK survivor tag?
 

King Kamala

Integral Poster
I really wish they had continued the "Randy Orton is the master of the traditional Survivor Series" angle they had going in '03-'05 and not ended it with a god damn stupid DX comedy match.

At least, I can rest easy knowing CM PUNK IS DOWN WITH DEGENERATION X!
 

snuffbox

Integral Poster
Yes, Team Austin vs Team Bischoff is my favorite all-time SS match. Perfect as it gets IMO.

If we do a TSM List of Survivor Series matches that one'll definitely be in my top 10. Fantastic match. And the only truly great match at a Survivor Series from 1998 until, well, off the top of my head I'm not sure, but several years after 2003.
 

Laz

0101100101
Vengeance 2003 is on my shortlist of GOAT WWE PPVs, so I can't exactly agree with saying 2003 is an all-time worst year when [2007-2020] is in the running.
 
Summerslam 2002 never gets mentioned anymore as a really great show. Last year of counting on Summerslam as one of the shows that always delivered.

I'll be honest and say I didn't take Kane seriously because the second he unmasked the black paint and haircut looked like a cartoon character when a bomb explodes.
 

snuffbox

Integral Poster
Another sneaky bad year is 2013. I guess Bryan's rise towards the end of the year and the .Shield stuff keep it from being all time bad but the first six months of the year are painfully boring and paint by numbers stuff. Mania 29 reflects that imo

Yeah, 2013 has some all time great matches but they get overshadowed by the awful booking throughout the year.
 
Fair but the very next week when he was clean shaven and had to be led to the ring by cops, it made him look menacing in a "they're not here to protect me, but you" way.

Kane should have been booked like Jason Voorhees from the very beginning. They had a perfect reboot.
 

strummer

Integral Poster
Kind of hilarious in retrospect that Brock was background fodder for the Vince v Stephanie feud in summer 2003
 

JN News

JN News
23 years ago today, Brian Pillman died unexpectedly. His character of "The Loose Cannon" was getting close to the Attitude Era until he passed away at the age of 35.
 

Fall of Epic

Epic Reine
Today I learned that Flyboy Rocco Rock of Public Enemy was 49 when he passed away in 2002 which means he was already in his 40s by the time the team found their way to ECW and WCW. Pretty crazy when you think about it.

Johnny Grunge was only 39 when he passed in 2006. Didn't know there was over 10 years of an age difference between the two while they were teaming.

Since I brought it up, where would you rank PE in terms of GOAT tag teams? In the middle, lower end or not even in the conversation? They did champion ECW's tag division in their early years if that even means anything.

Also, they DID get a shoutout in a Weezer song. That has to mean something right? *ducks tomato*.
 

snuffbox

Integral Poster
They had a lot of fun, memorable matches in ECW. They had some in WCW, too. They might've had some good matches with Hardys/Dudleys/E&C in WWE if given a chance.

Not a goat-level team but they were fun to watch, probably the most influential re: table spots, and, are, at the least, underrated.
 

BruiserBrody

Integral Poster
Definitely not GOAT tier but a strong third tier/weak second tier ‘90s tag team.
Is there any Public Enemy stuff that holds up after the Hardcore division and basic Main Event style took so much ECW stuff and beat it into the ground?

Cactus Jack did such nutty stuff that a lot of his brawls in WCW etc hold up, but I am struggling to think of where PE's high point would be,
 
Top