Author Topic: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?  (Read 1570 times)

Description: And why?

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Offline RavishingRickRudo

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I've often had the complaint when watching ufc shows that so many of their fights end up being shitty kickboxing.  Tonight's ufc 182 event left the same sort of impression on me.  This was particularly evident when the crowd went nuts for an omoplata during the cowboy fight, after seeing three straight bouts of less than stellar stand up fighting.

It also stands out because I've been watching a lot of 2001/2002 ufc and was struck by how often fights went to the ground and how much more variety you saw within the same fight.  You would have guys stand and strike, clinch, shoot takedowns, and work on the ground.  Nowadays it seems like it's primarily stand up, and any subs come off knockdowns or occur quickly after the fight went to the ground.  The days off a back and forth ground battle seem long gone, and I can't remember the last really good fight that went everywhere.

So when did tho start?  And more importantly, why?  Is this just a phase, or is this to stay?

Offline RavishingRickRudo

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2015, 05:24:36 PM »
I think a large part of it is the bias of Zuffa.  Esp now with the way their bonus structure is set up, the guys who get knockouts are getting the money.  Even with the year in reviews or best fights of the year features, you always see the brawls highlighted.  When promoting fights, it's focused mainly on striking.  There really is little incentive, if you want to make 50000 and be seen in a better light, to take the fight to the ground.

It especially hurts when guys like Jon Fitch are fired for being boring (I really don't know what I would describe the first three main card fights tonight, but "exciting" wouldn't be one of them - but you won't see someone who stands and bangs get canned for being boring, even if they are shit and boring as fuck, but heaven forbid you are as inactive on the ground) and someone like Ben askrin is kept to the sidelines because his style doesn't warrant his price tag.  Sometimes I just want to see a different kind of fight.  And the ufc isn't providing a whole lot of that.  When rodrigo damm and Evan Dunham feel like they have to strike with each other and deprive us of seeing their strengths in action, I feel like the sport loses.   

Zuffa has created a climate where grappling is discouraged and kickboxing is encouraged,so that's what guys train.  I don't think it's 100% of the reason, but it's a significant one.

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2015, 05:42:01 PM »
The last few PPV's had great grappling and the main event here was one of the best displays of elite grappling in MMA.

This is purely reactive. You know why this show had shitty grappling? Because they put guys who rely on standup on it. That's how the matchups worked out. Dunham has gotten tooled up in his last few fights, he was just trying to win and faced somebody who was a nice matchup for him on the feet.

The fighters have also figured out how to neutralize wrestling, just like every other trend.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline RavishingRickRudo

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2015, 05:57:12 PM »
I've had this thought for so many ufc shows, I've only decided to make a thread about it now in large part because the older UFCs that I've been watching lately have had so much more variety. 


Offline RavishingRickRudo

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2015, 06:09:31 PM »
One of the biggest things are the rules of the sport that deters grappling and favours striking.
The ref can stand you up if you are "inactive" on the ground, and can break you up when you are against the fence, all in the name of entertainment.  But if it's shitty kickboxing they don't put you on the ground when there's only been 5 strikes landed in 3 minutes of fighting.  That doesn't seem fair.  At the very least refs should issue yellow cards for lack of activity standing. 

Offline NoCalMike

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2015, 05:24:10 PM »
Well also I think some of the ground game has been neutralized because a lot of fighters are being successfully trained how to not get submitted and overall takedown defense, as opposed to actually learning to fight on the ground in the case it goes there.  They are taught what to do if taken down, and the best way to try and get right back up.

Also, with 5 minute rounds it is going to be harder to get submissions against quality opponents who don't freak out the second the fight hits the ground. Wrestling has overtaken BJJ in a lot of cases and you see in a ton of fights that guys with great wrestling can get takedowns for days but once the fight hits the ground they look almost as lost as the guy who just got taken down.

Zuffa can all they want about being MMA but it is seems pretty apparent they want as many stand-up striking matches as possible, even if it is merely a fight devolving into guys throwing sloppy haymakers.
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Offline HSJ

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2015, 12:56:02 AM »
The truth is that training the multi-facets of MMA has reached an equilibrium.

Everyone trains the same way and everyone learns the same thing. Which means even D1 All Americans will have trouble taking a UFC-level fighter down, and a BJJ World Champion will have trouble submitting a UFC-level fighter on the ground.

Hell, the stand up game is starting to cancel each other out, as well. Thats why these undercard fighters go 15 minutes in boring kickboxing matches.


DTF

Offline MikeofEvil

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2015, 04:39:59 AM »
I do remember thinking when I started hearing about people who had over ever 'trained Mixed Martial Arts' that a lot of the individuality was going to be lost from the sport. People will still have strengths and weaknesses, of course, but they won't be as pronounced and that possibly detracts from some of the interest.


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Offline NoCalMike

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 01:31:17 PM »
A lot of guys are training to be good at a lot of things, but not great at any one thing.  How many times do you see a guy score takedown after takedown, but then look clueless as to what to do next.

Or someone is throwing a good jab, but can't follow it up with a straight shot, instead only looping haymakers.

Fighters are starting at a younger age to be more well-rounded, but it might be at the expense of being truly fantastic at any certain discipline.  Before, you had guys who were masters at something, and then trained just enough at the other stuff to compete.
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Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2015, 11:38:58 AM »
It's a shame we can't put this Bader/Davis fight going on right now on loop in this thread.

Offline RavishingRickRudo

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2015, 09:37:43 PM »
I will also point out that the ufc bonuses on the card all went to guys with ko finishes, not the guy who won by standing guillotine.

And so far for 2015 not a whole lot of fights going to the mat.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2015, 06:35:45 AM »
This has been encouraged backstage for sure. I also think a lot of their signings reflect a desire to go towards lots of standup fights, or action fighters failing that. I agree that action fighters are more entertaining, but if you want to be the best fight org in the world then you have to sign the best fighters, regardless of style or entertainment value.

You can't deny that if Ben Askren was as good at striking as he was at wrestling, then he would have been signed before he even went to Bellator. It doesn't matter that he'd probably be a lot worse because having a subpar ground game is much worse than having subpar standup. Dana wouldn't care, he'd trot him out to either deliver a spectacular KO or get laid on for fifteen minutes every time.

Offline RavishingRickRudo

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2015, 11:39:08 AM »
Watching the nadal/kong fight and I'm reminded of this thread.  Because apparently this stuff doesn't happen often.  A few thoughts occurred to me:

They should really get rid of ref standups.

And I think a big reason why we get so many shitty kickboxing matches is because the UFCs cut off for fighters is about 6 fights.  That's not really enough time to learn effective mma grappling, but plenty of time to pick up weak Muay Thai.

Offline NoCalMike

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2015, 12:07:05 PM »
Also shorter rounds probably hurt the ground game.
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Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2015, 08:34:06 AM »
I saw the first minute of Kelly/Walsh and skipped it immediately. I did try watching bits of it as I skipped through, out of morbid curiosity but it was so painfully bad that I didn't end up watching more than another thirty seconds of the rest of the fight, total. Reading comments about it after the fact are hilarious. Apparently my opinion was confirmed and it really was the worst fight in the history of the UFC.

Offline AA484

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 09:24:44 AM »
Lol, I thought of this thread a minute or two into that fight.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 09:40:45 AM »
http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/2/15/8040837/ufc-fight-night-broomfield-in-tweets-pros-react-to-ben-henderson-brandon-thatch-dana-white-mma-news

Skip to the part where they show tweets about this fight. I've never seen pros so unanimous in hating on a fight. They're normally p. protective of fighters and their efforts because they're sensitive to being criticized as that's perceived to insult the work and risk involved in training and fighting professionally, but gotdamn they (rightfully) shit all over this one.

Offline MikeofEvil

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Re: When did the ufc become a predominantly crappy kickboxing organization?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2015, 05:25:57 AM »
Lol, I thought of this thread a minute or two into that fight.

Yup, me too.


I'm an angel. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Can't wait to see out outrage online when Elias one-two's Brunson for a split decision and becomes a top ten MW.



heh

Offline Lord of The Curry

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Bumped a four year old thread to post a picture that won't load.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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It loads for me.

Also, salty.