Author Topic: Old School Observations/Questions: 2018-2019 Edition  (Read 32614 times)

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Offline Kotzenjunge

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Old School Observations/Questions: 2018-2019 Edition
« on: January 04, 2017, 11:20:58 AM »
I stumbled across a YouTube channel with full old shows on it and I've skipped ahead to the Rumble match itself on the 1997 edition as a way to get hyped for the 2017 version in the same building. To start, I've never watched much at ALL from this time period. I know the historical perspective but never actually look at any of it. That said, I already have issues and only three guys have come out so far.

1) Vince's higher pitched announcing voice didn't miss a beat when talking about how thick Ahmed Johnson is. As I've typed this I realized Vince was already dying to get edgy by saying a guy named Johnson was "just so thick."

2) Oh my. I've never watched a moment of Fake Razor/Diesel footage and it's fucking embarrassing when Fake Razor comes out and looks like dogshit. They put that shit in front of 60,000 people and thought it was acceptable? I just kept exclaiming "this is AWFUL!" I can't complain about anything being put on TV ever again because it wasn't a miserable counterfeit of someone else like a World Famous Flea Market match like this. Hooooooly fuck.

3) I caught the end of the "lucha" match before the Rumble itself and I'm fairly certain the average age of the participants was 48.

4) The Thick Mr. Johnson is an idiot for eliminating himself to go after Farooq when he had someone in the Nation (who I presume he was feuding with at the time) already in the dann ring!

5) Speaking of, I dig this version of the Nation with the platoon of guys in suits.

6) Rumble matches should always allow managers at ringside to enhance the novelty of the match ESPECIALLY since 2002 with two separate rosters most of the time.

It all feels like a last gasp of the old way, and in that I mean it's nostalgic but really sad to watch too. It's also weird to NOT hear a megapop for Austin's entrance in Texas even though he was in the main event mix already at this time. His demeanor and behavior looks so unique compared to the cartoons around him, I can see why he caught fire around this time.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2017, 12:16:14 PM »
Fake Razor/Diesel were always booed regardless, but I always felt like there was some extra resentment from the crowd there because of the lack of Rumble entrant countdown. Fake Razor just casually walks out of the back with no build or music due to the clock issues. That countdown is part of the live Rumble experience, damnit.


Offline Kotzenjunge

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2017, 12:29:11 PM »
At least they had the sense to realize Fake Diesel was a better worker and gave him time instead of Razor. Weird Rumble, no real flow at all and the roster must have been paper thin when there were luchador one-shots and multiple guys pulling double duty.

Offline The Amazing Rando

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 12:44:50 PM »
A quick scan of wikipedia and some math tells me that the average age of the luchas was 39, and that's with two of them being in their 20s.
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Offline Brodypedia

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 05:15:40 AM »
At least they had the sense to realize Fake Diesel was a better worker and gave him time instead of Razor. Weird Rumble, no real flow at all and the roster must have been paper thin when there were luchador one-shots and multiple guys pulling double duty.
They hadn't drawn a HUGE crowd for several years by this point, so the Luchas were suppose to help bring in fans. Having several legends of Lucha couldn't hurt.  I like the card overall, especially following the mishmash of SSeries 96

Offline Brodypedia

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 08:18:20 AM »
Sage mentioned in his last article about Tatanka's streak.

It appears Chavis won about 190 matches his first year in the WWF.  He then won another 170 or so before jobbing to Borga in late Sept.

* match count includes some USWA spots.  Numbers are only rough estimates.

Offline Gert

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2017, 02:10:34 PM »
I'm doing my annual deep dive of Royal Rumbles, and it's pretty amazing to see how thin the rosters were between the 94-97 stretch.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 11:03:48 AM »
I'm doing my annual deep dive of Royal Rumbles, and it's pretty amazing to see how thin the rosters were between the 94-97 stretch.
Even 99 was weak as fuck, and that was the height of the Attitude Era.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 10:00:24 AM »
The thin roster depth in 1999 is particularly evident since they pretty much divided the entrants into three tiers after Austin & Vince: jobbers, mid-carders, and DX/Corporate. At least most Rumbles now usually throw some stars in toward the beginning, though I feel like that tends to result in more iron man performances than are needed.

Offline Tino Standard

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 03:33:04 AM »
Just got into a Twitter debate with Stat Guy Greg from ESPN's Cheap Heat pod because he called Shawn Michaels' first WWE run "wildly overrated."

Just off the top of my head: Two Razor ladder matches, the Diesel match where Mad Dog Vachon's prosthetic leg was ripped off, the Undertaker feud that led to the first HIAC, WM14 vs Austin when he was basically working with a broken back...

Am I off-base here? Are these matches worse than I remember? I know he had a rep for being a petulant shit behind the scenes, but he was pretty damn great in the ring, no?

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2017, 05:34:12 AM »
It totally depends on what you want from your wrestling. The only objective metric to use is financial success, and HBK was a top guy during the company's lowest drawing period, so he may be going by that or he's just not into how HBK worked back then.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2017, 05:37:06 AM »
I've been watching that run for a while now. Have not missed a single non-squash HBK match that was on TV. It is not remotely overrated.


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Offline snuffbox

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2017, 08:17:03 AM »
He was a consistently good to goat uppercarder/main eventer from around October 1992 to WM 14. I dont think it's really possible to overrate that. And we havent mentioned he was in a p good tag team for more than five years before that (and a not-terrible few months getting his singles act all set).

I dont understand why a fan/observer would have to care that much about how much money other people are making. Does anybody go to baseball games to make sure the owner's getting a little more cash?

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2017, 08:19:05 AM »
Drawing power is important but the only way to tell if someone was good or not? Come on. If the Bret matches or Razor ladder matches dont prove it than he wouldnt like anything in his second run either.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2017, 08:24:37 AM »
He was the best worker in the big two from 1991 until Rey got into WCW. That's a pretty long time.

He was also the best bumper in the big two. Sabu and Cactus Jack were better, but that was sadistic bumping and not really comparable.

What is overrated about Michaels is that he wasn't a good promo guy. That is probably why his title reign failed, but he got over without being a good promo guy and got that push by being amazing in the ring. When I think about it, I can't think of any earlier comparable to him.


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damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Kotzenjunge

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2017, 11:12:50 PM »
This is going to sound weird, but ever since I was a kid I never thought his voice matched his appearance. I don't know how else to verbalize it.

Offline Brodypedia

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2017, 04:13:36 AM »
http://culturecrossfire.com/wrestling/wrasslin-october-1984/

We set the wayback machine to October of 1984 as we travel to each major territory to examine the happenings. This month includes an NWA feud being settled on WWF TV, Roddy Piper gets rowdy with the Tonga Kid, several more major stars jump to the WWF, St. Louis fans are spoiled by having two top caliber main events go down in one night as NWA legends clash with the AWA's top stars, 3 promotions promise to trade talent to fend off the WWF invasion, Brody no shows a ton of scheduled AWA main events, the AWA crushes Vince in Chicago, Verne screw over his paying audience intentionally, a glimpse of "Psycho" Bob Backlund is seen, an infamously poor wrestler gets a Memphis push, the Von Erichs headline a stadium show, a famous Mid-South feud restarts, JCP has to rearrange their title scene after losing more talent to the WWF, Starrcade is set up and much more!!

Offline DMann1979

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2017, 03:26:11 AM »
This is going to sound weird, but ever since I was a kid I never thought his voice matched his appearance. I don't know how else to verbalize it.

Right, to look at him you'd think he'd sound like Jon Bon Jovi, instead he always had that Southern Texas drawl (which granted makes sense given where he's from but still).

Offline Kotzenjunge

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2017, 10:37:33 AM »


This was waiting for me when I got home from work today! I had no idea where else to share my glee, figured the Old School thread was as good a place as any.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2017, 01:04:25 PM »
My big problem with Shawn Michaels' first run was that they were just trying to recycle the Hulk Hogan formula with him.  I know, suspension of disbelief and all that, but it just seemed silly to have this dude kip up like nothing happened after being pounded on by guys like Nash, Sid, Vader, or even the British Bulldog.

As far as being the best worker, I was always more of a Bret Hart guy, myself.  I guess it's just personal preference, but if you asked me for my 20 favorite matches probably close to half would have Bret in them.
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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2017, 01:09:46 PM »
Before Jesus HBK was a natural egotistical asshole, so fitting him into a "Gee shucks I'm just living my boyhood dream" role wasn't natural and the fans (the male ones anyway) saw right through it.

Online Firmino of the 909

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2017, 01:20:28 PM »
Bret had better PPV matches, but HBK wasn't pushed for a similar period of time. On a nightly basis I think HBK was the superior worker. When I watch them both wrestle on TV, I think HBK's matches had a higher energy level and greater effort.


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Offline Kotzenjunge

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2017, 01:30:53 PM »
I was a Bret kid from when he won the IC title onward and he was the only person I'd always stop switching between Nitro and Raw to watch after he left for WCW.

Lex Luger was the transparent Hogan clone to me. It was always bullshit how Bret got shafted in '93.

Offline Richard

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2017, 07:17:39 PM »
It was 1996 and Shawn looked like an 80s hair metal rocker

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2017, 11:42:28 PM »
Exactly how does he define Michael's first run?  Are we talking about the entire body of work from 1988-1998, or are we just talking about his 1996-1998 main event streak?

I ask because if we include his tag team work, I can see the overrated remark, but just that two year streak, he was legit one of the best workers in the world.

Offline snuffbox

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2017, 02:43:28 AM »
How does he became overrated by adding several years' worth of good matches?

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2017, 03:09:34 AM »
Him from at least mid-'95 to '98 was one of my all time favorites. Even when they took everything I dug about his personality for that "boyhood dream" shit, he still had a really amazing title run, which is impressive given how shit the roster was. I know I spent my allowance on PPVs in '96 because I knew he'd always have an awesome match. I assume "overrated" is because of the burden of knowledge about him as a person.

Offline Kahran Ramsus

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2017, 03:16:02 AM »
Bret had better PPV matches, but HBK wasn't pushed for a similar period of time. On a nightly basis I think HBK was the superior worker. When I watch them both wrestle on TV, I think HBK's matches had a higher energy level and greater effort.

From a pure worker standpoint, I think Chris Benoit was better.  No mic skills whatsoever and of course his whole career is now ruined, but in the mid 90s he was the best I'd seen.

Offline CanadianGuitarist

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2017, 07:13:40 AM »
The Angle HOF induction and question posed by a colleague in our work's group chat makes me think of two things:

The question asked was "can we name anyone who hasn't lost by tapping out." One such guess was Austin, who IIRC, tapped to Angle at Unforgiven. This leads into the second thing:

I can't find it whatsoever, but I could swear at Summerslam the prior month Heyman completely no-sells JR's anger after Austin got himself DQ'd.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2017, 07:17:58 AM »
By "tapping out," do you mean in the time period since that became a standard part of pro wrestling or just submitting in general?

Going by the first definition, has Goldberg ever tapped to anything?

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2017, 09:54:36 AM »
The Angle HOF induction and question posed by a colleague in our work's group chat makes me think of two things:

The question asked was "can we name anyone who hasn't lost by tapping out." One such guess was Austin, who IIRC, tapped to Angle at Unforgiven. This leads into the second thing:

I can't find it whatsoever, but I could swear at Summerslam the prior month Heyman completely no-sells JR's anger after Austin got himself DQ'd.

I found a couple janky versions of JR's rant floating around, but they all seem to have edited out Heyman's non-reaction and just cut straight to the graphic for the next match. Which is a shame, because it's one of my favorite moments with those two during their all-too-brief run as the No. 1 announcing team.

As I remember it: As Angle and Austin are clearing out, we're taken to ringside and JR is losing his religion on Heyman about how Austin knew he couldn't beat Angle, screaming and pointing his finger in Heyman's face the whole time. He finishes by asking Heyman, "Can you argue THAT point?! Can you disagree with THAT?! HELL NO."

Heyman just blankly looked at him for a moment, then calmly turned to the camera. "Folks, we have a great new show debuting this Saturday called 'WWF Excess'..."

Offline CanadianGuitarist

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2017, 01:01:28 PM »
By "tapping out," do you mean in the time period since that became a standard part of pro wrestling or just submitting in general?

Going by the first definition, has Goldberg ever tapped to anything?

That's an interesting follow-up. I don't think we clarified that - someone mentioned The Rock (although the same worker was apt to use "most famous gimmick" as a criterion). If we're qualifiying it as simply submitting, Maivia lost the IC title to Owen via the Sharpshooter, I think.

The Angle HOF induction and question posed by a colleague in our work's group chat makes me think of two things:

The question asked was "can we name anyone who hasn't lost by tapping out." One such guess was Austin, who IIRC, tapped to Angle at Unforgiven. This leads into the second thing:

I can't find it whatsoever, but I could swear at Summerslam the prior month Heyman completely no-sells JR's anger after Austin got himself DQ'd.

I found a couple janky versions of JR's rant floating around, but they all seem to have edited out Heyman's non-reaction and just cut straight to the graphic for the next match. Which is a shame, because it's one of my favorite moments with those two during their all-too-brief run as the No. 1 announcing team.

As I remember it: As Angle and Austin are clearing out, we're taken to ringside and JR is losing his religion on Heyman about how Austin knew he couldn't beat Angle, screaming and pointing his finger in Heyman's face the whole time. He finishes by asking Heyman, "Can you argue THAT point?! Can you disagree with THAT?! HELL NO."

Heyman just blankly looked at him for a moment, then calmly turned to the camera. "Folks, we have a great new show debuting this Saturday called 'WWF Excess'..."

THAT'S IT! I had the Network on at a buddy's on NYE and looked for the clip. Everything you said is correct, but on the Network it simply switched after JR's "hell no!". I swore up and down that Paul no-sold it to shill something, but no one else there remembered.

I wonder how they got along off-camera. JR and Heyman were by far the most animated face-heel commentary team IMHO, but at a Legends Roundtable  with JR, Lawler said "nobody liked Heyman" - JR's poker face was spot on.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2017, 02:00:50 PM »
Owen pinned Rock for the title but he did tap for Ken Shamrock at Survivor Series 97.

The closest is probably Undertaker, who I only remember tapping for Angle in the double finish match on Smackdown
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Offline CanadianGuitarist

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2017, 02:34:50 PM »
Owen pinned Rock for the title but he did tap for Ken Shamrock at Survivor Series 97.

A bunch of times in '98 too, now that I think about it. Rumble, WM, KotR....

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2017, 03:11:11 PM »
The biggest one for the no tap out has really been Cena.  He tapped to Angle once when he was still a midcarder and that was it, I think.  Those other guys did in big time main events, his was fairly early on.
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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2017, 11:10:19 AM »
Watching an old MSG show on YouTube and Gorilla Monsoon actually refers to a chinlock as a "resthold".
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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2017, 11:40:17 AM »
Watching an old MSG show on YouTube and Gorilla Monsoon actually refers to a chinlock as a "resthold".

Well you could consider it that, sort of, for the person using it.
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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2017, 11:56:05 AM »
I know, it's just odd to actually hear "resthold" on TV.  Always struck me as more of an inside term
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Offline CanadianGuitarist

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2017, 01:02:55 PM »
How long was Terry Gordy in the WWF for? I honestly don't remember any appearances whatsoever (promos, squashes, anything) apart from his match with Taker in late '96.

Edit: Google is my friend. Buried Alive to help Mankind and a match on Superstars in early '97.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 08:12:52 AM »
The Freebirds were also in the WWF for a couple months back in 84.

His last appearance under the Executioner gimmick was the 1/12/97 RAW, losing to Goldust, with Paul Bearer turning on him after the match.
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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 08:24:47 AM »
On a somewhat related note, there was briefly a local number here around that time period where you could call to get wrestling updates and rumors every week (among other sports and news), and that was how I found out that Gordy was going to be the Executioner.  They also said there were rumors that Hogan and Savage were going back to the WWF, which I thought was a huge stretch considering the two had just main evented Halloween Havoc.  Thinking about it now has me picturing a Mega Powers vs Owen/Bulldog tag match.  Obviously it wouldn't have been as good with Hogan/Savage circa 1996, but aside from battle royals I'm pretty sure none of those four guys were ever in a match together.  And Owen and Savage I think could have still put on some great stuff
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Offline Kahran Ramsus

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2017, 08:49:19 AM »
I know, it's just odd to actually hear "resthold" on TV.  Always struck me as more of an inside term

They would usually call them "weardown holds."

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2017, 08:59:22 AM »
On a somewhat related note, there was briefly a local number here around that time period where you could call to get wrestling updates and rumors every week (among other sports and news), and that was how I found out that Gordy was going to be the Executioner.  They also said there were rumors that Hogan and Savage were going back to the WWF, which I thought was a huge stretch considering the two had just main evented Halloween Havoc.  Thinking about it now has me picturing a Mega Powers vs Owen/Bulldog tag match.  Obviously it wouldn't have been as good with Hogan/Savage circa 1996, but aside from battle royals I'm pretty sure none of those four guys were ever in a match together.  And Owen and Savage I think could have still put on some great stuff

According to cawthon, this is the closest to Owen and Savage facing off.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2017, 09:13:21 AM »
The rumor that Savage was going back to the WWF in early 1997 was very legitimate.


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Offline Damaramu

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2017, 11:35:37 AM »
Wasn't Hogan talking to them too? But I heard that was just to leverage more from WCW.
I watched RAW. I thought it sucked. The usual problems and such.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2017, 04:16:57 PM »
Hogan, Hall and Nash played WCW (more specifically, Bischoff) like a damn fiddle at that time.  All they had to do was mention WWF calling them (if it was true or not) and they'd get a bump in pay.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2017, 03:52:32 PM »
Aziz Ansari just wore an NWO wolf pack t shirt on SNL while introducing Big Sean as musical guest. 

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2017, 01:01:14 AM »
Can anyone here think of a more universally cool wrestling shirt than the nWo one? It's great in B/W or B/R.

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Re: Old School Observations/Questions, 2017 Edition
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2017, 02:56:51 AM »
Can anyone here think of a more universally cool wrestling shirt than the nWo one? It's great in B/W or B/R.

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Fan: WHY CAN REY BEAT BIG GUYS BUT NOT KIDMAN
Kevin Nash: Kidman wears a wife beater