Author Topic: ...Dive  (Read 5918 times)

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Offline Epic by Faith No More

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...Dive
« on: May 14, 2017, 10:43:53 AM »
Wrestling community up in arms over the weekend after a controversial tweet sent out by (of all people) Rip Rogers.


Do you think this is accurate? Several wrestlers such as Will Ospreay and TJP responded and Randy Orton even tweeted a parody of this. What do you think?

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2017, 10:47:45 AM »
that goes well with my post about daniel bryan

Offline DorianS

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2017, 10:50:08 AM »
I think it is pretty much he was more trying to say "this is pretty much how matches are" and I sort of agree with that sentiment.

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2017, 10:50:55 AM »
Top guys never do suicide dives.

Offline ViciousFish

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2017, 11:03:06 AM »
Rip, like Cornette, has a hard time accepting the business has evolved.

If they wrestled 30 years ago like they do today, both those guys would be blowing Ricochet and Ospreay. That said, he's not wrong.
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Offline no fact, no matter

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2017, 11:16:37 AM »
Rip Rogers is irrelevant.
You should probably put your bandit hat on now.

Offline geniusMoment

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2017, 12:00:00 PM »
Wrestling has become more and more of a dance, and less of a simulated, violent fight.  It's part of why I don't like it anymore.  It also goes into the "this is awesome" chants (which I despise), in that it's like people are judging a dance and when a bunch of choreographed moves look good they applaud.

But, I just don't watch it anymore.  I've accepted I don't like wrestling anymore.  If people like it currently that's great for them.  Not telling them they shouldn't like it.
Randy!

Offline cobainwasmurdered

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2017, 12:21:56 PM »
You are watching the wrong wrestling. There is lots of great wrestling out there still.

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2017, 12:28:45 PM »
Wrestling changes. Do you remember one of the first WWF Attitude promos? I believe Ernie Ladd or Gorilla Monsoon said, "I never went off the top rope". Back in 70's it was grappling and rest holds.

A lot of these indy wrestlers do wrestle an acrobatic style and the people pay to watch it. That's what matters.
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Offline Youth N Asia

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2017, 12:41:49 PM »
I stopped watching wrestling about a dozen years or so ago, but keep up with what's what.

I agree with Rip for the most part. Obviously this isn't the case for everyone, but in the early 2000's it seemed like most indy wrestlers just stopped selling. The Amazing Red, all 99 lbs of him would have matches where he'd get dropped on his head a dozen time by high impact moves and always manage to kick out. I get that wrestling evolves, but it was becoming more of a dance routine at that time and it was harder for me to get drawn into. I remember a match with M-Dogg 20 where he was getting his ass kicked and just had a big stupid grin on his face the entire match. The ass kicking he got in that match should have meant something.

Again. I know this isn't the case for everyone, but it was rampant. Selling died in the early 2000's. If you have a curtain jerker kicking out of a handful of powerbombs and then your main eventer loses to a DDT it's a really uneven balance.

Online Firmino of the 909

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2017, 12:47:46 PM »
I think it is pretty much he was more trying to say "this is pretty much how matches are" and I sort of agree with that sentiment.

Yup. The best guys in WWE, the ones people here seem to like...they don't do this.

That being said, that's how the business has to be now. Everyone knows it's not real, everyone knows that when you stiff people they get hurt. So this is the best way forward. These older guys seem to think you can put the genie back in the bottle. Nobody is going to pay big ticket prices to watch your 1980's matches.

My problem with the wrestling business is that somehow fighters with brain damage can talk a better game and sell their shit better.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Kotzenjunge

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2017, 12:58:37 PM »
I don't think it's failing to evolve with the business if you want wrestlers to sell moves or have finishers be legitimate match enders again. Without paying at least some lip service to making things seem legitimate, it isn't professional wrestling anymore and becomes stage fighting.

Offline ViciousFish

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2017, 01:29:27 PM »
Wrestling matches have basically become movie fight scenes without the benefit of stunt men and second takes.
Matt, don't be a fag. Post some huge cocks.

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2017, 02:03:22 PM »
and the potential for good stories

Offline Kotzenjunge

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2017, 02:04:22 PM »
I like Orton's responses to all of this. I may not have enjoyed his non-Foley/Taker matches really ever, but at least he makes a good point. The high impact, highspeed style is certainly becoming more prevalent but it doesn't guarantee success and other styles must also exist.

Offline no fact, no matter

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 02:43:04 PM »
Is all of this really from Bubba Ray doing a jump off the top? What a stupid thing to get heated about.
You should probably put your bandit hat on now.

Offline Baby Shoes

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 03:27:20 PM »
I saw ...Dive stuff last night but didn't pay attention.  Saw Orton's involvement blowing it up and then LowKi taking shots at Orton for throwing tantrums because lol
[img width=800

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Fan: WHY CAN REY BEAT BIG GUYS BUT NOT KIDMAN
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Offline cobainwasmurdered

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2017, 05:17:22 PM »
There's a ton of great wrestling out there. I watch like 6-8 different companies from Japan alone regularly (not even counting various spinoffs that run less often) and there is a lot of variation in what you get from them. There's still big meaty dudes throwing down. There's traditional jrs, worked/shooty uwfi type shit, lucharesu stuff, comedic, old school ajpw/njpw styles, random old dawgs beefing, death matches, whatever floats your boat. All of it is easy to find too. That doesn't even take in Lucha, and the rest of the world.

Add in how easy it is too watch old shit now and I've got more wrestling to watch than I'll ever be able to.

Offline Avid Warehouse Enthusiast

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2017, 12:33:04 AM »
I agree with Rip and it's one of the reasons I don't watch wrestling much at all anymore. Even the stuff I do watch (primarily ICW and whatever Dragon Gate I can find) has plenty of flips, dives, and silly spots, but they're almost always dealt with as moves done to win a match instead of "look what we can do."

Touching on this, though...
Wrestling matches have basically become movie fight scenes without the benefit of stunt men and second takes.
Wrestling matches have always been movie fight scenes without the stunt man/second take benefit. A big issue right now is that too many are making their matches look like an Avengers fight versus a Daredevil one, or they try Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon instead of Ong-Bak.

Offline no fact, no matter

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2017, 01:49:42 AM »
That "big issue" is subjective. Fuck this idea that we're only allowed to enjoy one type of wrestling. If people enjoy the "Crouching Tiger" version of a wrestling match, and dudes get paid and enjoy performing that style, then who gives a shit? Oh right, old dudes like Rip Rogers who are bitter that time has passed them by.
You should probably put your bandit hat on now.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2017, 02:21:30 AM »
Quote
Rip Rogers‏
@Hustler2754

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Fans buy false finishes when u actually beat somebody with them earlier-

he's right, and say what you want about Rip's own career, he worked with the best so at least he was around it



tweak it a little and this stuff could probably get over today. Goldust probably stole some ideas from THE STREET

Offline Epic by Faith No More

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2017, 02:36:23 AM »
It's worth noting that Ospreay's reaction was pretty much "yeah, but I get paid and people pay to see me so fuck off".

Offline Damaramu

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2017, 03:05:19 AM »
It's worth nothing that Ospreay's reaction was pretty much "yeah, but I get paid and people pay to see me so fuck off".

I guess Randy came back with the typical WWE:
"Yeah well a lot of people pay me a lot of money to do it and I put asses in seats while you guys wrestle in an armory so STFU."

I hate that line of thinking. It seems like a lot of the older school WWE guys (Kevin Nash being a big offender actually) think if it didn't happen in WWE then it was in a middle school gym watched by 30 people.
I watched RAW. I thought it sucked. The usual problems and such.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2017, 03:34:26 AM »
That's the exact kind of high school mentality that we talked about in the JBL thread.

As if the current WWE product could have garnered the fanbase they have without the history of the brand and all those 80s and 90s stars that still get pops when brought back today.

Offline Avid Warehouse Enthusiast

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2017, 03:43:25 AM »
That "big issue" is subjective. Fuck this idea that we're only allowed to enjoy one type of wrestling. If people enjoy the "Crouching Tiger" version of a wrestling match, and dudes get paid and enjoy performing that style, then who gives a shit? Oh right, old dudes like Rip Rogers who are bitter that time has passed them by.
I'm glad there's variety. If every match was UWFi shoot style then there'd be no wrestling to watch because, quite frankly, that style is boring on the whole. Pro wrestling needs flash and sizzle and has since the business changed during the '20s to become a full-on work across the board. Nobody's saying you're not allowed to enjoy it, either. Rip Rogers even said, during an NWA fan convention live panel (either the first or second that Cornette did the podcast on), that there's a lot of styles out there that he's not fond of but still accepts as pro wrestling (name-dropping, in specific, ECW and lucha libre).

No, the people who agree aren't saying that there's no room for high flying or that highspots need to be brought back to a dropkick. What they are saying, however, is that the current flippy floppy style doesn't appeal to them because it's even phonier than the 10-punch corner spot that doesn't leave any welts. It's hard to disagree with that viewpoint, too, when a random midcard match from JCP 1989 has more heat than your average main event in 2017.

There's a happy medium to be found and the pendulum, right now, is swung so far into the "it's all a show" area, much like it was 25 years ago, that a pull back toward a more "realistic" style is inevitable.

But hey, if you enjoy spots that take forever to set up and you can see coming from a mile away? Go for it. I still watch deathmatch wrestling now and again.

Offline HSJ

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2017, 06:54:25 AM »
Really, is Rip that far off though? I don't really think he's wrong (as long as you don't look at it as an attack on certain people and just a general overview of the industry - especially on the indies).


DTF

Offline Epic by Faith No More

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2017, 07:03:19 AM »

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2017, 07:08:02 AM »
wat

Online Firmino of the 909

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2017, 07:11:48 AM »
Really, is Rip that far off though? I don't really think he's wrong (as long as you don't look at it as an attack on certain people and just a general overview of the industry - especially on the indies).

The ratings and state of the business say he's right even though I don't agree with all of it.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline ViciousFish

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2017, 07:46:50 AM »
What state of the business? The fact that there's more successful indies than there's ever been thanks to YouTube, iPPV, DVDs and gifs?

Just because the WWE is getting less successful, doesn't mean wrestling isn't doing well in other ways. The Monday Night Wars era was an anomaly. Maybe wrestling will get that big again, but pop culture/mainstream culture is weird and unpredictable and with there being a million more channels than there was 20 years ago, ratings for most shows are getting watered down.
Matt, don't be a fag. Post some huge cocks.

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2017, 08:09:15 AM »
What happens when the current crop of stars go to NXT and WWE and WWE UK and WWE CHINA and WWE INDIA and WWE ANTARCTICA in 5 years and all these great booming indies have to rely on Jack Swagger or Ryback level failures from the WWE while there's not nearly enough new talent coming in to be developed and overtake those who made their names outside of WWE?

Is this really going to sustain itself?

Offline cobainwasmurdered

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2017, 10:04:53 AM »
TBF that's what people said when Danielson, punk and Joe left  and then again when the big NXT raids started or even before. The indies has managed to adapt fairly well because there are enough people who like wrestling even if they don't like wwe. That might not continue but I think they have a good chance for the foreseeable future.

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2017, 10:07:27 AM »
Yeah that's true. I always forget indy wrestling didn't die for most like it did for me.

Online Firmino of the 909

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2017, 10:08:09 AM »
What state of the business? The fact that there's more successful indies than there's ever been thanks to YouTube, iPPV, DVDs and gifs?

Define success please.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline ViciousFish

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2017, 11:28:16 AM »
They run shows that make enough money to pay the workers, pay the bills and put on the next show. The big U.S. indies sell out nearly every show. ROH, PWG (tickets for every show sell out within 5 minutes), WrestleCircus, EVOLVE, GloryPro. All sell out every or nearly every show.
Matt, don't be a fag. Post some huge cocks.

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2017, 12:06:57 PM »
I'm sure guys aren't becoming millionaires (or maybe not even hundred thousandaires), but it seems like you can make a good living for yourself on the Indy scene nowadays.  It's probably a lot better than 10 years ago at least.  And WWE is more open to signing a wider array of talent so more guys have a better chance of getting a look from them.

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2017, 10:52:54 PM »
What state of the business? The fact that there's more successful indies than there's ever been thanks to YouTube, iPPV, DVDs and gifs?

Just because the WWE is getting less successful, doesn't mean wrestling isn't doing well in other ways. The Monday Night Wars era was an anomaly. Maybe wrestling will get that big again, but pop culture/mainstream culture is weird and unpredictable and with there being a million more channels than there was 20 years ago, ratings for most shows are getting watered down.
Indy wrestling is more popular now than it ever was before, true, but even the biggest indies and their stars aren't drawing as much money as old-school territories did. When the critique of "state of the business" pops up, this is what it's in reference to, not the indy scene of 2003 or the Monday Night Wars. There's a lot of things that factor into it, the biggest ones having little to do with wrestling as a genre (economic issues, tech evolution, generational change, etc.), but companies and talents haven't done much to help by offering the same type of product more often than not. You can find the same card and workers in ROH, PWG, CZW, Beyond, etc.

Offline ViciousFish

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2017, 11:17:45 PM »
I consider indies and territories different. Vince doing his thing destroyed the idea of the territory and created indies.
Matt, don't be a fag. Post some huge cocks.

Offline no fact, no matter

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2017, 01:46:01 AM »
What state of the business? The fact that there's more successful indies than there's ever been thanks to YouTube, iPPV, DVDs and gifs?

Just because the WWE is getting less successful, doesn't mean wrestling isn't doing well in other ways. The Monday Night Wars era was an anomaly. Maybe wrestling will get that big again, but pop culture/mainstream culture is weird and unpredictable and with there being a million more channels than there was 20 years ago, ratings for most shows are getting watered down.
Indy wrestling is more popular now than it ever was before, true, but even the biggest indies and their stars aren't drawing as much money as old-school territories did. When the critique of "state of the business" pops up, this is what it's in reference to, not the indy scene of 2003 or the Monday Night Wars. There's a lot of things that factor into it, the biggest ones having little to do with wrestling as a genre (economic issues, tech evolution, generational change, etc.), but companies and talents haven't done much to help by offering the same type of product more often than not. You can find the same card and workers in ROH, PWG, CZW, Beyond, etc.
Do we have actual stats on that though, or is it just a thing that people say? Also do the stats/money numbers take into account the different eras, dollar value, inflation, etc?
You should probably put your bandit hat on now.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2017, 01:51:43 AM »
Quote
1st Von Erich Memorial Parade of Champions
Information

Promotion   World Class Championship Wrestling
Date   May 6, 1984
Attendance   43,517 paid
Venue   Texas Stadium

are there any indies that do this kind of business?

Offline Damaramu

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 AM »
No, but they didn't have a national juggernaut to compete with either and in most cases were the only show in town or had strong competition to drive business if they weren't.

I'm with ViciousFish. Indies and territories are different things.
I watched RAW. I thought it sucked. The usual problems and such.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2017, 02:29:56 AM »
There are literally less than half as many people watching wrestling on Monday nights as there were in the Monday Night Wars era, which had TWO companies on top, and ECW was still a bigger brand than any of these indies today. Excuses.

I know a lot of people that like wrestling or could like wrestling but don't watch it because the WWE sucks. If those people had a better alternative marketed to them, they would watch it. There is actually a lot of market to capture, there's a reason these indies don't capture it.

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2017, 02:44:48 AM »
There are literally less than half as many people watching wrestling on Monday nights as there were in the Monday Night Wars era, which had TWO companies on top, and ECW was still a bigger brand than any of these indies today. Excuses.
To be fair to the argument, ECW had virtually no competition once they started catching fire. There were other groups that ran Philly but nobody drew like ECW, even pre-"Extreme." The only real contenders were much later on, right around when they closed, with CZW locally, JAPW to an extent, and XPW on the other side of the country.

It's worth noting that the indy boom of the early '00s was because there was a gap for #2 after WCW and ECW closed. Even still, though, most indies stick to a specific region with rare exceptions (international tours, WM weekend). ROH tours nationally, sure, but the other biggies (CZW, PWG, Beyond, AIW) stick to their own regions (or territories, if you will).
Quote
I know a lot of people that like wrestling or could like wrestling but don't watch it because the WWE sucks. If those people had a better alternative marketed to them, they would watch it. There is actually a lot of market to capture, there's a reason these indies don't capture it.
I did a quick search and found the Freakin' Awesome Network board had a thread about why indies don't draw very well. One of the more interesting arguments comes in the form of how much FREE PRODUCT is available to the average consumer. Who would pay to sit in a sweaty chair next to a bunch of neckbeards for 3-4 hours when they could watch the same show for free in the comfort of their own home? Another has to do with advertising and marketing, namely most indy promoters stick to social media when hanging flyers could potentially increase draw size.

It's pretty funny how this conversation steered from whether or not the current flippy floppy style is a factor into indy business models. I didn't see that coming but I'm liking it.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2017, 02:56:44 AM »
There are literally less than half as many people watching wrestling on Monday nights as there were in the Monday Night Wars era, which had TWO companies on top, and ECW was still a bigger brand than any of these indies today. Excuses.
To be fair to the argument, ECW had virtually no competition once they started catching fire. There were other groups that ran Philly but nobody drew like ECW, even pre-"Extreme." The only real contenders were much later on, right around when they closed, with CZW locally, JAPW to an extent, and XPW on the other side of the country.

c'mon man, it's a lot harder to make gains with two hot national companies with the biggest stars in the history of the business that have way more audience than it is to capture far more of an untapped market with only one super player that is shitting the bed and a bunch of other podunk companies. None of those later brands ever captured what ECW did, and they only existed because ECW developed that market. And it's funny how you still call it "Philly" like that's a territory, but it seemed to do just fine during the national era. Last time I checked WWE did good business in Philly before ECW was ever a thing, so what's the excuse of the indies today?

In almost any industry, small imitators die out and there are usually a few big players. If there's only ONE big player, there's not one for long. Except in rasslin'. And I don't buy the regional argument either, because you have the ability to share your shit to the whole world on YouTube. There are musical artists and forms of entertainment that get big by first sharing their stuff through the internet. Like Vince said, it's not just about rasslin', it's entertainment. If these indies can't gain that audience, maybe the product isn't that good.

UFC/sports leagues are the exception and supposed to be monopolies because people want to see all the athletes compete under one brand.

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2017, 02:57:55 AM »
And yes, I'm sure the marketing of these companies is shit too. But I feel like a good product in the entertainment world goes a long way in marketing itself.

Offline Brodypedia

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2017, 04:27:58 AM »
My Dad was never a fan, but I suppose he had to watch enough WWF because my brothers and I were fans.  Anyways, he watches ROH on occasion since it's on Saturday's at 10pm. He asks me if I watch and I have to tell him I just can't get into it. I basically told him that it is hard to explain to a non-fan, but I feel the current product is more about how many flips a guy can do than the simulated violence I grew up with.

I personally absolutely hate the Young Bucks because of the superkick not being treated as a KO kind of a move. My buddy trolls me on this and tries to explain that they use it like most guys will use a punch to transition from move to move.


/AWA

Offline Epic by Faith No More

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2017, 04:32:55 AM »
I enjoy the Young Bucks for the most part but I understand why other people don't. I get enjoyment out of most styles of wrestling. It's not about this style vs that style for me. I just enjoy everything.

Offline no fact, no matter

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2017, 05:53:34 AM »
I personally absolutely hate the Young Bucks because of the superkick not being treated as a KO kind of a move. My buddy trolls me on this and tries to explain that they use it like most guys will use a punch to transition from move to move.
Why does the Superkick need to be a KO move? Because HBK was such a hard hitting wrestler?

Also there are tons of guys active in WWE who use the SK as a transition or non-finisher move. Don't place this on the Bucks just because they know how to make money off of their gimmick.
You should probably put your bandit hat on now.

Offline Avid Warehouse Enthusiast

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2017, 06:19:39 AM »
Wow. Are we actually having actual discussions about wrestling again? Not just "I like this" and moving on? Sweet. I miss that.
c'mon man, it's a lot harder to make gains with two hot national companies with the biggest stars in the history of the business that have way more audience than it is to capture far more of an untapped market with only one super player that is shitting the bed and a bunch of other podunk companies. None of those later brands ever captured what ECW did, and they only existed because ECW developed that market.

Eh, yes and no. It was harder back then because there were two MAJOR players above ECW, but Heyman had two major things working for him that most indy promoters now don't.

1. He was marketing savvy
2. He spent his influential years as a photographer and manager learning from the likes of Dusty Rhodes, Eddy Gilbert, and any other veteran that would let him listen

Even beyond that, think of the national scene in 1993-1996, when ECW started becoming the clear #3. WCW was giving us Cheatum the Midget and RoboCop and the Dungeon of Doom, the WWF had Doink the Clown and King Mabel and UnderFaker, and then here comes ECW promising blood, tits, and profanity. It's become pretty easy to overlook how important that minor brand distinction actually was in the '90s, but the famed "ECW was the grunge scene" narrative is actually true. Just like Nirvana was an underground band who took the world by storm through chance alone, ECW was the biggest anti-WCW/WWF option around. Add in that Meltzer gave ECW shows favorable reviews, Heyman being the puppet master that he is, and that ECW was the first to establish a real presence on the burgeoning internet? Of course people were going to find out about it.

Now, compare it to 2017. WWE and TNA are the only companies with national TV, but TNA's audience is about the same size as ROH's. For all intents and purposes, TNA and ROH are neck-and-neck as #2, TNA through their own incompetency and ROH seemingly by design (something tells me that Gabe, Silkin, Sinclair, etc. never thought ROH could be #1 and embraced the niche market). Just below that you have PWG and CZW, and below them you have Evolve and Beyond, and just below them are AIW and 2CW, and below them is a myriad of other independent companies that know they'll never be big time.

Suddenly, there's more fish in the pond with sizable audiences than there were 20 years ago. It's easier to get noticed when you're the only one doing your thing than when you're offering something of similar quality as a dozen other competitors.
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And it's funny how you still call it "Philly" like that's a territory, but it seemed to do just fine during the national era. Last time I checked WWE did good business in Philly before ECW was ever a thing, so what's the excuse of the indies today?
It (ECW) did so fine that it went out of business owing thousands of dollars. ECW's brand penetration was at its largest when it closed, true, but it killed itself getting there. Considering ROH was formed entirely because Rob Feinstein wanted a new tape library to pimp out and keep his own company afloat, and that head booker Gabe Sapolsky was an ECW office guy? Something tells me the lesson was learned not to run before you could walk. The problem then is contentment and how so few indies want to grab a bigger slice of the pie because they all saw what happened to the last two companies that tried.
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In almost any industry, small imitators die out and there are usually a few big players. If there's only ONE big player, there's not one for long. Except in rasslin'. And I don't buy the regional argument either, because you have the ability to share your shit to the whole world on YouTube.

The regional argument is directed toward how indies still promote, generally, in one geographical area. Few tour outside of special events like WrestleMania weekend. It's also not as easy as saying "just share your shit online" because that market is overcrowded as hell right now.
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There are musical artists and forms of entertainment that get big by first sharing their stuff through the internet. Like Vince said, it's not just about rasslin', it's entertainment. If these indies can't gain that audience, maybe the product isn't that good.
Agreed on the bold. I even addressed it when I said...
There's a lot of things that factor into it, the biggest ones having little to do with wrestling as a genre (economic issues, tech evolution, generational change, etc.), but companies and talents haven't done much to help by offering the same type of product more often than not. You can find the same card and workers in ROH, PWG, CZW, Beyond, etc.
UFC/sports leagues are the exception and supposed to be monopolies because people want to see all the athletes compete under one brand.
And that doesn't describe the current wrestling scene? Most fans are watching WWE/NXT and New Japan, or at least that's what gets the most chatter. In that sense, it's one of the few sports-like qualities that pro wrestling actually has left.
And yes, I'm sure the marketing of these companies is shit too. But I feel like a good product in the entertainment world goes a long way in marketing itself.
A good product in the entertainment world is worthless unless somebody knows how to sell it to you. If the opposite were true, then Kevin James wouldn't have a career.

Offline Avid Warehouse Enthusiast

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Re: ...Dive
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2017, 06:33:19 AM »
Experiment time.
Why does the Stunner need to be a KO move? Because Steve Austin was such a hard hitting wrestler?