Author Topic: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?  (Read 939 times)

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Offline Lord of The Curry

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How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« on: April 12, 2017, 06:21:16 AM »
I'm branching this out of the Upcoming/Rumored Fights thread because of what 909 said to my comment about Nick Diaz being one of the most overrated fighters of all time. 909's point was that Vitors only top level win off the juice was Hendo at 45.

So yeah, let's talk about that. For example, a lot of fans by default will now view GSP as the GOAT because of Jones and Anderson having pissed hot. Despite all of the talk about usage and it's probably justified GSP has never tested positive for a performance enhancing drug.

There's also fighters like Hendo who experienced a career resurgence on artificial testosterone and looked horrid when coming off it.

Let's talk about drugs.

Offline Just Call Me Dan

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2017, 06:33:32 AM »
MMA had a steroid era just like baseball.  And now we live in that post-PED/USADA era.

I'd say that overall, there will be two groups: purists who are going to stray away from Bonds/McGwire/A-Rod when they speak of the greats in baseball, and those who will accept the era for what it was and tend to believe that there were not really any "clean" players for a certain time period.  Those type fans will more or less put most of baseball's elite together in some sort of co-GOAT or a Mt. Rushmore of sorts.

I think MMA fans will be exactly the same.  Those unable to leave GSP out of the GOAT discussion and having more of that Mt. Rushmore approach, or those who would deny all others and ordain GSP at this point.

I'm more the type that puts less emphasis on the use or TRT/PEDs during a certain time because I'll never be quite sold on anyone that competed then as having been completely clean.

Offline Lord of The Curry

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2017, 06:39:13 AM »
I have very little doubt that at minimum for half of his career that GSP was on something but speculation alone isn't enough to discredit somebody and even in the case of Anderson there are a lot of people who out there who'd give him a pass if he was on the juice because guys he beat during the roid era (Nate, Hendo, Vitor, Chael) were also on something.

Offline Just Call Me Dan

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2017, 06:42:30 AM »
God I wish Anderson would have just came out and said he used to help heal his leg after it broke in half and apologized.  I think it changes the outlook on his career totally.

Offline Lord of The Curry

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2017, 06:57:12 AM »
True but I don't know how many people actually take the Thai dick pill explanation seriously.

Offline Just Call Me Dan

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2017, 06:59:23 AM »
Oh I wholeheartedly agree, I don't think anyone buys that.  I just feel like he had an extremely rare circumstance that referencing it might've caused most detractors to actually let it slide.

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2017, 07:36:18 AM »
Massively influences my view and in terms of even how I approach watching a fight. One thing that Cormier being a champion has taught me is that he looks the way a 38 year old is supposed to look when fighting. It's supposed to look difficult. Any big guy fighting like a terminator is inherently suspicious.

As for steroids themselves, it's a scientific fact that they help people with recovery, so anyone using them in training is entering a fight with a massive boost. Someone who gets caught as many times as Vitor, Chael, Josh Barnett, or Ben Rothwell, their entire career is tainted from my perspective. It's probably the worst in Vitor's case because as soon as you took away his steroids, his performances became so diminished that he couldn't beat anyone with a similar skill level as him. There are other guys who haven't gotten caught who have had their entire career tainted for me too. Weidman came pretty close to redeeming himself on Saturday, but he gassed so hard that nobody can tell me there's not a massive assisted performance difference between the guy that beat Lyoto Machida and the one that showed up on Saturday. Johny Hendricks speaks for himself. There's countless others like Shogun, but deep down we all know that shit. I think you can be redeemed if you're like Overeem and return obviously not on steroids, obviously showcasing a diminished performance, and still putting a beatdown on guys.

The difference between somebody like Weidman and Shogun, or Vitor and GSP, is that Weidman and Vitor both fought plenty of guys who were clean and beat them. GSP and Shogun on the other hand fought in the land of terminators, and so did Vitor to some extent, but if you think Rockhold and Bisping were on shit I think it's delusional to believe that. I hate to put Weidman in that category, but you look at who he beat and how he beat them, then look at what happened when USADA came in, I think it would also be foolish to believe we're talking about a clean fighter here. I don't believe in career resurgences either, so sorry Robbie Lawler. I love him but he was probably on shit this whole time.

When somebody's getting older and they've truly been a natural athlete for their entire career, they're supposed to start looking like BJ Penn did. Or like Daniel Cormier does at the least. DC is consistently vulnerable in any fight, does gas, never has a superhuman performance, pulls out of fights due to injury. That's what natural fighters do.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2017, 07:47:02 AM »
Vitor was broke down and beaten up by 2012, I don't take into account him looking like shit post-TRT in 2015 as far as a career retrospective goes. In fact, the reason he dropped to middleweight was because he stopped roiding and became a leaner fighter using his supposed natural frame. Of course he got super ripped on TRT and used that shit to help him make weight too, but anyway.

It doesn't really bother me now because 'they're all on steroids'. But it bothers me in the sense that you never really know if your opponent is using, so if they're clean it's a really shitty thing to do. But when I know a guy is clean and still dominated like BJ Penn, that makes what he did more impressive. People make fun of Heath Herring, but that guy had to deal with roided control from three great wrestlers in Kerr, Lesnar and probably Erikson (don't let looks fool you), and he finished two of three of them. I respect shit like that.

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2017, 07:47:53 AM »
Another good example is the way soccer players usually stop playing at a high level when they're 32-34. Nobody can really prove to me that fighters are really that much different. Both sports require extremely fine motor skill to compete at the highest level, and a gas tank to put you through hell and back. Everyone would call this a stupid comparison, but if you compare the bodies of the people in question they actually have a physical look that's pretty similar. They work just as hard and have to be vigilant in keeping off weight, just like a fighter.

Those guys have to run between 6-10k in competition every three to seven days, if 34 year olds can't stay in shape to do that sport twice a week and put in all the training, then it's hard to fathom any other athlete being any different. There's maybe a handful of players over that age in that sport who can play at a high level. Consider the participation levels in that sport and it's crazy to think you can only find 10-20 players who are able to do that and maintain a similar performance level to when they were younger. Fighters have to put in the road work too, so there should only be a few fighters that age competing at a high level.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2017, 07:51:47 AM »
The career resurgence thing, I hate to admit it but Werdum had issues post-USADA. Rothwell got popped too. RDA also looks different. Lesnar got popped after looking better than he ever has at near-40. Barnett showed up out of nowhere after pro wrestling for a while and didn't miss a beat. It's hard for me to believe that the Reem's latest run isn't the result of some next-level horse meat.

So yeah career resurgences, don't buy 'em.

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2017, 07:55:57 AM »
The Reem looks like shit, though. Body is completely changed physically. Can't take a punch, gasses really hard, had to completely change his style. I believe in his resurgence. He might be the only one.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Lord of The Curry

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2017, 07:57:08 AM »
Reem in his current state isn't the Ubereem who smashed Lesnar but he's not as bad as the shrunken down version who fought Bigfoot. He's BetweenReem.

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2017, 07:58:11 AM »
I also think the only reason he beat Hunt is because he got lucky enough to fight someone more washed up than him.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Lord of The Curry

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2017, 08:01:14 AM »
And cause Hunt was more tired then him. I remember one sequence where Hunt queered him up with elbows and had him staggered and Reem just leaned on him and Hunt couldn't move.

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2017, 08:05:16 AM »
All natty fighting right there.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2017, 08:20:49 AM »
Quote
“But these are things that happen. Weidman is a very lucky guy, and this time he wasn’t lucky. He’s very lucky, but his luck ran out. He had some luck for a while, and now it’s over.”

Asked to clarify if that meant he believed Weidman counted on luck, rather than skill, Silva left room for interpretation.

“A lot of luck,” Silva concluded. “A lot of luck.”


Offline Lord of The Curry

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2017, 08:27:18 AM »
Sodium levels: high.

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2017, 09:16:27 AM »
I miss steroids looking at the current state of the divisions. Expecting these people to train nonstop without their aid is making it awful... more injuries more missed weights horrendous events.

Just like how Boreball got ruined and not enough home runs now... MMGAY is a complete snoozefest now.

JUICE EM UP

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2017, 09:30:19 AM »
post/av

Offline HSJ

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2017, 11:20:20 AM »
I personally don't care and wish they would let them put whatever they wanted into their bodies.


DTF

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2017, 12:23:34 PM »
The way it was meant to be

Offline Lord of The Curry

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2017, 11:37:10 PM »
I personally don't care and wish they would let them put whatever they wanted into their bodies.

Street drugs too?

Offline HSJ

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2017, 04:08:30 AM »
It doesn't stop Jon Jones from being the best in the world or Nick and Nate putting on fun fights.

Hell, we just lost Kelvin for smoking some weed. Who cares?


DTF

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2017, 04:14:10 AM »
People who can kill someone with their fists shouldn't be allowed to pump junk into their bodies.


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline Lord of The Curry

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2017, 04:35:49 AM »
Yeah let's allow Francis Nngannou to do some PCP before lacing on the gloves. See what happens.

Offline HSJ

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2017, 04:47:30 AM »
Obviously they wouldn't be under the influence before a fight. That is crazy talk.

But you can not deny that since bringing USADA in, fan interest in the UFC has been on a downward slope with the constant cancellation of big fights and suspensions.


DTF

Offline Firmino of the 909

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2017, 04:49:43 AM »
Obviously they wouldn't be under the influence before a fight. That is crazy talk.

But you can not deny that since bringing USADA in, fan interest in the UFC has been on a downward slope with the constant cancellation of big fights and suspensions.

The UFC did bigger business than ever last year.

In 2014, it wasn't exactly knocking down doors. They had so many cards fail to crack 200k buys, and only two cards crack 350k. So that's just blatantly untrue. It's not only that, but cards like PVZ/Waterson and Shevchenko/Pena do great business even though logic would dictate that they shouldn't. 


koab [8:27 PM]
damn i thought you guys were good little cucks who would shit themselfs so a POC could peacefully protest

Offline HSJ

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2017, 05:13:30 AM »
Obviously they wouldn't be under the influence before a fight. That is crazy talk.

But you can not deny that since bringing USADA in, fan interest in the UFC has been on a downward slope with the constant cancellation of big fights and suspensions.

The UFC did bigger business than ever last year.

In 2014, it wasn't exactly knocking down doors. They had so many cards fail to crack 200k buys, and only two cards crack 350k. So that's just blatantly untrue. It's not only that, but cards like PVZ/Waterson and Shevchenko/Pena do great business even though logic would dictate that they shouldn't.

5 out of 12 PPV's in 2014 cracked 300k. The ones that didn't had Mighty Mouse, Barao, and TJ Dillashaw as main events. Guys that the UFC didn't promote.

2013, 14, 15 and 16 all had about the same number of shows so I wouldn't mind comparing buyrates during these years when I get a chance. Obviously shows with McGregor are going to do huge numbers, but I stand by my comment that fan interest is beginning to wane due to the cancellations of fights/suspensions of top fighters.


DTF

Offline Fan of Sports with Integrity

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2017, 08:09:44 AM »
I think fan interest is waning because they're taught not to care about top fighters now. Before, Dana only used to shit on like Tito as far as his main eventers were concerned, and that worked because Tito was always the People's Champion. Now he shits on everyone who might leave, so the only top draws are guys that built their own fanbases like Conor and Nate. If Mousasi doesn't draw people, then why did Dana put him in a main or co-main for 11 of 12 of his UFC fights? How can he draw people if the President is talking about one of the hottest win streaks in the game with disdain? I can think of ten other examples of potentially marketable elite fighters that he buried in one way or another.

Maybe some fans want them geared up, but in order to be taken seriously by mainstream press and fans they need to take a hard stance on steroids. It's not the 80s, or even the early 00's in a foreign land.

Offline Former Faithless Fool

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2017, 05:17:05 AM »
So what you're telling me is they need steroids and a proper mouthpiece to hype 'em up.


Offline alkeiper

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2017, 01:00:32 AM »
Another good example is the way soccer players usually stop playing at a high level when they're 32-34. Nobody can really prove to me that fighters are really that much different. Both sports require extremely fine motor skill to compete at the highest level, and a gas tank to put you through hell and back. Everyone would call this a stupid comparison, but if you compare the bodies of the people in question they actually have a physical look that's pretty similar. They work just as hard and have to be vigilant in keeping off weight, just like a fighter.

Those guys have to run between 6-10k in competition every three to seven days, if 34 year olds can't stay in shape to do that sport twice a week and put in all the training, then it's hard to fathom any other athlete being any different. There's maybe a handful of players over that age in that sport who can play at a high level. Consider the participation levels in that sport and it's crazy to think you can only find 10-20 players who are able to do that and maintain a similar performance level to when they were younger. Fighters have to put in the road work too, so there should only be a few fighters that age competing at a high level.
Jersey Joe Walcott won the heavyweight boxing championship at 37. He was largely considered an old man. Jack Johnson was washed up at that age. Ali was done in his mid 30s. Joe Louis was 37 when Rocky Marciano knocked him through the ropes. We get to the '90s and all the sudden George Foreman is champion again. Evander Holyfield is boxing in his 40s and winning. Bernard Hopkins is winning fights approaching 50. The Klitschkos were dominant in their mid 30s. You get a shift like that and there's really only two plausible explanations. Either the caliber of competition is way down (plausible), or drugs. I can accept the former in the case of MMA, because it's still a relatively nascent sport. But in a highly competitive environment it shouldn't happen.

Offline NoCalMike

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2017, 11:16:54 AM »
If we are talking about right now.....I think it is definitely a negative perception I will have of a fighter.  Once the sport is getting serious or at least in the early stages of trying to get serious about stopping it then that sort of changes my outlook and feel fighters who are still trying to get around it deserve severe punishments.

In previous eras, while it shouldn't have been taking place either, it is sort of like MLB's "steroid era" where the people who actually got caught were vilified, while realistically damn near the entire league was doing it. Doesn't make it any less wrong, but I think it just makes it harder to single out fighters in that case instead of the sport as a whole.
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Offline NoCalMike

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Re: How much does steroid use influence your view of fighters?
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2017, 11:23:47 AM »
I think fan interest is waning because they're taught not to care about top fighters now. Before, Dana only used to shit on like Tito as far as his main eventers were concerned, and that worked because Tito was always the People's Champion. Now he shits on everyone who might leave, so the only top draws are guys that built their own fanbases like Conor and Nate.ot of UFC fighters even

I think all things considered Dana/Zuffa/etc are not that great about "creating" stars.  Most fighters that are draws, it is because there is something about them that the fans identify with, root for, root against etc etc.....Zuffa can certainly enhance their stardom by uber-selling them and hyping, but ultimately it is the fighters who become or don't become the face of the sport.

One thing I feel UFC is absolutely horrible about is pushing people too soon, trying to make stars out of fighters who aren't ready, possibly never will be.   They often run into this problem when they end up with an Anderson Silva or GSP who dominate their weight division for so long, that Zuffa tries to hype up the level of their competition to absurd levels in order to sell PPVs.

They are so desperate at all times for the next cash cow that when a fighter strings together a few wins, suddenly they are "OMG could this be the next......."
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