30 Days, 30 MLB All Franchise Teams

[alkeiper]

One of my favorite down activities is coming up with all time teams. I figured I would share the fruit of my labor and open up some discussion. I tend to do these in the order B-Ref sorts their stathead options. A few ground rules:

1. It's a meritocracy. Career value counts a little more than peak. I tend to use a five season minimum but I may break that, especially for expansion teams.

2. I can use players for more than one franchise. For now. If I import the rosters into OOTP Baseball I may chose substitutions.

3. Minimum 16 pitchers. Three catchers, preferably four. Teams built to play a full season.

Los Angeles Angels

Catchers
Bob Boone
Bengie Molina
Mike Napoli

Infielders
Erick Aybar
Rod Carew
Doug DeCinces
Chone Figgins
Jim Fregosi
Troy Glaus
Bobby Grich
Wally Joyner
Howie Kendrick
Adam Kennedy
Albert Pujols
Andrelton Simmons

Outfielders
Garret Anderson
Chili Davis
Brian Downing
Jim Edmonds
Darin Erstad
Vladimir Guerrero
Torii Hunter
Tim Salmon
Mike Trout

Pitchers
Jim Abbott
Dean Chance
Kelvim Escobar
Chuck Finley
John Lackey
Mark Langston
Kirk McCaskill
Andy Messersmith
Troy Percival
Francisco Rodriguez
Nolan Ryan
Ervin Santana
Frank Tanana
Jarrod Washburn
Jered Weaver
Mike Witt

Albert Pujols was literally the last player selected, mostly because Joyner, Erstad and Carew are left handed hitters. Quite a few players who had their best years with a different franchise. Kennedy, DeCinces, Davis were other borderline calls. Chili Davis does well in hitting metrics and I think it's fair to consider a designated hitter. If there's a question here it's whether to carry another pitcher instead of a position player. But I felt Ken McBride, Bryan Harvey, etc. weren't as important to the franchise as those aforementioned hitters.

Starters vs. relievers is a tough call and I've never been able to create a real guideline on it. Some teams like the Baltimore Orioles have several good bullpen options. Other teams like the Cleveland Indians barely have any relievers I would rate in a top twenty. I consider them on a team-by-team basis. By taking only Percival and Rodriguez I'm ignoring any of the Angels' middle relievers such as Dave LaRoche and Scot Shields. Shields had a lengthy Angels career and he feels like he fits on a team. But he never made an All Star team, and that pushed my decision. I reserve the right to make the opposite call on Al Hrabosky.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Not much to quibble with there really. The Angels were pretty stacked in the SP department, especially during the 1990s.

 

[Baby Shoes]

Great list. I think the only guy that came to my mind as an Angel that wasn’t on the list was Mark Trumbo and I’d say he’d be a fringe guy there at best. Only a couple years of service.

Althoguh when typing this I strangely started thinking of Gary DiSarcina.

 

[alkeiper]

If you did this twenty years ago DiSarcina would probably rate as the third string shortstop.

 

[alkeiper]

As a preview for tomorrow, there's nothing that quite matches the fun of scanning a dozen St. Louis Browns pitchers who compiled 250-300 IP a year with losing records. The depression era Browns played in front of crowds that would be embarassing in the minor leagues. Does it really matter what George Blaeholder or Lefty Stewart did? Could you possibly justify rating those pitchers over someone who actually pitched in Baltimore? I guess this is why Orioles relievers are so enticing. The starting pitching outside the top three isn't enough to overwhelm the corpse of the St. Louis Browns.

 

[alkeiper]

Baltimore Orioles
Including St. Louis Browns

I go back and forth on including past iterations of a franchise. Some teams had a clean break between moves. Some changed cities but retained the team name and ownership. The Twins changed their name but kept the owner. I've found keeping the past teams in general presents the fewest challenges, though I hate what it does to Washington baseball. But while I've kept the Browns I think it is fair to consider them with a grain of salt. It is not to suggest that players of yesteryear could not hang with players of today. But this era of competitiveness pulls players closer to average when it was easier then to hit .400 or win 30 games. And in the case of the Browns, it's tough to bend over backwards to include players when they drew over 8000+ a game just one year in their history. Their own city barely liked them in their own era, let alone Baltimore fans in 2021. But some Browns players made the cut and I'll try to highlight them.

CATCHERS
Rick Dempsey
Chris Hoiles
Gus Triandos
Matt Wieters

INFIELDERS
Mark Belanger
Harlond Clift
Bobby Grich
Manny Machado
Melvin Mora
Eddie Murray
Boog Powell
Cal Ripken Jr.
Brian Roberts
Brooks Robinson
George Sisler
Bobby Wallace

OUTFIELDERS
Brady Anderson
Paul Blair
Al Bumbry
Baby Doll Jacobson
Adam Jones
Frank Robinson
Ken Singleton
Ken Williams

PITCHERS
Steve Barber
Mike Boddicker
Zack Britton
Mike Cuellar
Mike Flanagan
Ned Garver
Tippy Martinez
Scott McGregor
Dave McNally
Stu Miller
Mike Mussina
Gregg Olson
Jim Palmer
Milt Pappas
Urban Shocker
Hoyt Wilhelm

When there's not a clear advantage in WAR I'm looking for black ink, awards, all star appearances. Baby Doll Jacobson finished eighth and seventh in consecutive MVP votes. Top ten player in the league in the '20s? Ken Williams was the second best slugger of his time. On the pitching staff I deferred mostly to the Orioles. The problem generally with the pitching is that there's just not much depth. There's Palmer and Mussina, McNally, and then a jumble. I did include two Browns. Urban Shocker won 20+ games four seasons in a row and is clearly the best pitcher in Browns history. In fact, he's the only won to win 20+ more than once. Ned Garver finished second in the 1951 MVP vote.

I think beyond figuring out pitching the one hiccup with an Orioles club is how to handle backup shortstops. Bobby Wallace is a Hall of Famer. Belanger was a defensive wiz. But when your starter is Ripken, does any of it matter? Vern Stephens missed the club in part because you just can't justify a fourth shortstop.

 

[snuffbox]

No Satchel Paige?

 

[alkeiper]

No Satchel Paige?

If I did an all Browns team I might find a way to sneak Paige on there. The problem is it's impossible to place Paige on the team by stats. And while there's a ton of intangibles it's difficult for me to see applying them to Baltimore.

Let me shout out a similar pitcher though. Connie Johnson. Pitched for the Orioles in the mid '50s, led the AL in strikeout-to-walk ratio in 1957. He appeared in Ken Burns' documentary, the taller of the two black players who appeared in interviews together. Not a Hall of Famer but someone who probably would've made a couple all star teams had he been allowed a full MLB career.

 

[alkeiper]

A note. Great players who would merit consideration on a Baltimore wide all time team:

Baltimore Orioles (19th Century): Sadie McMahon (P), Matt Kilroy (P), Wilbert Robinson (C), "Wee" Willie Keeler (RF), Joe Kelley (LF), Hughie Jennings (SS), John McGraw (3B)
Baltimore Orioles (International League): Lefty Grove (P), George Earnshaw (P)
Baltimore Elite Giants: Bill Byrd (P), Henry Kimbro (CF)
Baltimore Black Sox: Jud Wilson (1B)

The Baltimore Orioles were also the first professional stop for Babe Ruth in 1914.

 

[King Kamala]

The Baltimore Orioles were also the first professional stop for Babe Ruth in 1914.

And the next time you go to Camden Yards (which I would say is one of the 5 MLB parks every fan should visit) and wonder "Why the hell is there a Babe Ruth museum here?" That's the answer. Well, that and the fact that Babe Ruth was born in Baltimore.

 

[alkeiper]

Oriole Park itself actually sits on the site of the saloon of Babe Ruth's father.

 

[alkeiper]

Boston Red Sox

CATCHERS
Rick Ferrell
Carlton Fisk
Rich Gedman
Jason Varitek

INFIELDERS
Wade Boggs
Jimmy Collins
Joe Cronin
Bobby Doerr
Jimmie Foxx
Nomar Garciaparra
David Ortiz
Dustin Pedroia
Johnny Pesky
Mo Vaughn
Kevin Youkilis

OUTFIELDERS
Mookie Betts
Dom DiMaggio
Dwight Evans
Harry Hooper
Fred Lynn
Jim Rice
Tris Speaker
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski

PITCHERS
Josh Beckett
Roger Clemens
Dennis Eckersley
Lefty Grove
Tex Hughson
Jon Lester
Derek Lowe
Pedro Martinez
Jonathan Papelbon
Mel Parnell
Dick Radatz
Babe Ruth
Bob Stanley
Luis Tiant
Tim Wakefield
Cy Young

This one was not terribly difficult. The toughest choice is Joe Cronin over Rico Petrocelli. Petrocelli had a higher WAR and WAR/game than Cronin. Cronin had more All Star appearances, MVP votes and reached the Hall of Fame. Cronin is also the franchise leader in wins by a manager and continued as general manager from 1947-59. I grew up learning about Cronin. I've never heard many people mention Petrocelli and he's still living. So I leaned Cronin.

39th and 40th spots went to Youkilis and Vaughn over Ellis Kinder and Bill Lee based on the formers' multiple top ten MVP finishes.

Babe Ruth's combined WAR hitting and pitching (B-Ref version) was 39.8. That's 16th in franchise history. He left Boston holding the single season HR record and pitched for two World Series winners. He was a capital S Star in Boston. Even if he doesn't become a Yankee legend, he's still securely among the Red Sox top 40 on those merits.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

I'd have thrown Schilling in over Beckett personally but I've never been a Beckett fan and felt he rode the coattails of great teams more-so than being a stud pitcher himself, even if that is inaccurate and not backed up by the stats. I just remember Dice-K overshadowing him in his first two seasons and Wakefield being more beloved as a Red Sox icon.

 

[alkeiper]

Of course Wakefield was beloved, he had a 17 year career! A player like Schilling is difficult because he was just there four years and you constantly run into these peak vs. career arguments. I looked at Beckett's three all star appearances, both players peaked with a second place Cy Young finish. Schilling went 6-2 as a Red Sox starter in the postseason, that's substantial. Beckett was 5-1 overall and great, GREAT in the 2007 postseason (4-0, 1.20 ERA).

In this case though it's actually Schilling vs. Tex Hughson. Hughson was a good pitcher but a healthy part of his run occurred during WWII. I would discount him more if he wasn't on the '46 team. If you wanted to argue Schilling over Hughson, I couldn't see that as wrong.

 

[Baby Shoes]

I remember Dice-K getting more attention because people thought he was going to be the next great but I feel like Beckett definitely pitched better than him. While I agree Schilling had more iconic moments, he remains a sensitive subject to me since he became outed as a Q’Anon weirdo.

Happy to see such a broad array from the list. Probably only two guys I’m sad didn’t make it in Manny Ramirez and Mike Greenwell but really not sure who would get removed for those.

 

[snuffbox]

Instead of Schilling, replace Hughson with Eddie Cicotte and his knuckleball

 

[alkeiper]

I neglected to mention World War II in regards to the rest of the team. Here are the raw bWAR totals for shortstop and center field

SHORTSTOP
Garciaparra (41.2)
Petrocelli (39.1)
Pesky (32.4)

CENTER FIELD
Speaker (55.8)
Smith (34.2)
DiMaggio (33.1)
Lynn (32.1)

Now it doesn't matter in the finished product but Pesky was my second choice for shortstop, Dom my second for center field. Both missed three full seasons to World War II. They played before and after the war for the Sox. First Pesky. Pesky was #3 in MVP balloting in '42, #4 in '46. His WARs in those seasons were 6.1 and 7.1 respectively. Pesky's WAR dipped to 3.5 in 1948. If you give him THAT each season from 1943-45, he passes Garciaparra. DiMaggio is less dramatic but if you give him three 3 WAR seasons he's into the 40s and well past the non-Speaker group. I think it's appropriate to give players credit for war service. I suppose it's less clear whether that credit should count for a franchise. But I think it's part of the picture of who they are. Pesky has a damn foul pole named after him. It's safe to say he's fairly prevailant in Sox history.

 

[alkeiper]

Instead of Schilling, replace Hughson with Eddie Cicotte and his knuckleball

I have enough trouble reconciling Carl Mays! I go much further down the rabbit hole and I'm talking up Oil Can Boyd.

 

[Baby Shoes]

Any day that starts with an Oil Can Boyd reference is a good day

 

[King Kamala]

I always think of Schilling being more important to the Red Sox than Beckett because of the BLOODY SOCK but it is really not the case, I guess, if you look at the stats. I really think of Beckett as more of a Florida Marlin than Red Sox , probably cause he played for Portland Sea Dogs when they were a Marlins affiliate and I remember all of the local news stories about his early success. Plus I'm biased cause his Sox run ended bitterly with the BEER AND CHICKEN SCANDAL.

Obviously, Curt Schilling has done stuff 1000x worse than scarf Popeyes and quaff Bud Lights while chilling in the clubhouse but all of his horrible behavior was years after his Sox run whereas BEER AND CHICKEN happened during a season so painful to experience that it (and the Bobby Valentine season after) zapped most of my interest in following baseball on a day to day basis.

 

[snuffbox]

Isn't the rabbit hole the whole point of things like this?!

 

[alkeiper]

It's a fine line between a fun trip down the rabbit hole and unwieldy 100 person rosters. How can you have a Red Sox team without Marty Barrett?!

 

[King Kamala]

That just reminds me of the Red Sox 100th Anniversary ceremony (my only positive memory of the 2012 season) where they invited every living Boston Red Sox alumni and there was an introduction ceremony that I feel like lasted two hours (and Jose Canseco showed up, flexing and taking selfies then threatened to beat up Bud Selig).

 

[Hawk 34]

Approximately how many times did you scream IM JOSE CONSECO during all this?

 

[King Kamala]

I do that on a daily basis and multiple times if I'm visiting a U99 Restaurant.

 

[alkeiper]

Chicago White Sox

I am not beholden to MLB's permanently ineligible list. Pete Rose will be included with the Cincinnati Reds. The White Sox post a different ethical dilemma however. Two players on this team were banned from organized baseball for throwing the 1919 World Series. Simply from a fan standpoint I think this would be a difficult pill to swallow. Ultimately I decided to include Jackson and Cicotte. Jackson has taken on a mythical quality and I think White Sox fans would genuinely want to see him. Eddie Cicotte? I guess on some level it's just easier to keep him than to determine the 17th best pitcher in White Sox history.

CATCHERS
Carlton Fisk
Sherm Lollar
A.J. Pierzynski
Ray Schalk

INFIELDERS
Jose Abreu
Luis Aparicio
Luke Appling
Chico Carrasquel
Eddie Collins
George Davis
Nellie Fox
Willie Kamm
Paul Konerko
Frank Thomas
Robin Ventura
Pete Ward

OUTFIELDERS
Harold Baines
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson
Fielder Jones
Jim Landis
Chet Lemon
Minnie Minoso
Johnny Mostil
Magglio Ordonez

PITCHERS
Mark Buehrle
Eddie Cicotte
Red Faber
Roberto Hernandez
Bobby Jenks
Thornton Lee
Ted Lyons
Jack McDowell
Gary Peters
Billy Pierce
Chris Sale
Bobby Thigpen
Ed Walsh
Doc White
Wilbur Wood
Early Wynn

 

[Baby Shoes]

Thank goodness Robin Ventura made it so Nolan Ryan has someone to punch in these hypothetical games. I think Fisk is the first guy I noticed to make two lists so far. That’s it for him but I am curious how many guys make it for multiple teams and who makes the most lists.

 

[King Kamala]

I feel like Nolan Ryan will make at least 3.

 

[snuffbox]

Cicotte was great and should be in the hall of fame. He did throw that Series, though. Buck Weaver is more on the Jackson side of all that. Also deserving of the hall but the evidence just isn't there to warrant an eternal ban.

 

[alkeiper]

I'm not doing a minimum so theoretically I could put Edwin Jackson on 14 lists. There's one player in MLB history who played 5+ years for four teams, Nolan Ryan. I've done the list for the Astros, it isn't much of a spoiler than Ryan made it. That leaves the Rangers and Mets. I don't think Ryan makes the Mets team. But I think there might be a candidate or two for four teams.