A Boxing History Thread

[alkeiper]

Have we ever done this? I swear we have but I couldn't find anything.

The 100 Greatest Title Fights of All-Time - BoxRec

boxrec.com

A quarter century ago I read Ring Magazine regularly and they did a list of the 100 Greatest Title Fights of All Time. It was an interesting list. I was reminded of it when I sought to watch Rocky Graziano vs. Tony Zale. They fought three times for the World Middleweight Championship. I found the third fight which didn't make the list. The first two did. But surprisingly, there's no film of the first fight and only clips of the second (which weren't known in 1996). That's two of their top ten where the full fights weren't/aren't available. There's good footage of their #3 choice (Dempsey/Firpo) but that isn't full either.

Number ten was Joe Gans vs. Battling Nelson. Fourty two rounds from 1906. Surely that's not available, right? Not in full and certainly not in pristine condition, but I was surprised to find it did in fact exist.

I also tracked down a contemporary news article about the fight:

Ottumwa tri-weekly courier. [volume] (Ottumwa, Iowa) 1903-1916, September 06, 1906, Image 6

Ottumwa tri-weekly courier. [volume] (Ottumwa, Iowa) 1903-1916, September 06, 1906, Image 6, brought to you by State Historical Society of Iowa, and the National Digital Newspaper Program.

chroniclingamerica.loc.gov

My larger question. Is a 42 round fight actually any good? You have an epic in your mind but really what seems to happen is both fighters wear out, don't have enough energy left to punch and you're left with a stalemate with fighters clinching, wrestling and just standing there looking for openings. Corbett/Jackson was a standoff for the last 30+ rounds. I don't think you could sit through Gans/Nelson or Nelson/Wolgast and possibly think you watched a better fight than say, Duran/Leonard I.

Now that Youtube has most anything you can think of I'm interested in going back and seeing some of the more recent fights on the list, particularly from the 1970s. Hardly going to make it a completionist project, but it's a reference to come back to and perhaps critique.

 

[snuffbox]

So many great, old fights on youtube. Along with some of the stuff from before my time, I've watched a lot of fights (and complete televised cards) on there over the past year. I didn't realize it at the time in the 1990s (I just happened to watch a shitload of boxing growing up) but that can rightly be considered a golden era in boxing.

Going back further, some of the fighters I've most enjoyed getting to see for, mostly, the first time: Alexis Arguello, Bobby Chacon, Aaron Pryor, Ray Mancini, Bazooka Limon, Edwin Rosario, and Bob Foster.

And I think Ezzard Charles should be involved in more goat discussions.

 

[alkeiper]

It's been years since I watched Pryor/Arguello, I believe via ESPN Classics. That was a HELL of a fight.

 

[snuffbox]

Yep, that's one I got to see years ago on Classic as well. And a few times since online. Such a great fight and heroic efforts from both fighters. But, all these years later, I think history's light shines brighter on Arguello even though he lost. If Pryor didn't have the Bobby Heenan of boxing in his corner, Arguello would've won that fight.

 

[alkeiper]

Ring Magazine's 1984 Fight of the Year, but one that did not make their top 100 title fight list. But a great albeit short turning of the tide bout.

 

[snuffbox]

Today is the 50th anniversary of the Fight of the Century.

 

[King Kamala]

I was wondering why ABC was airing an remastered version of Ali-Frazier I and now I know!

 

[alkeiper]

I don't think I've ever watched Frazier-Ali I all the way through. (And Frazier won, his name goes first!) I need to find an hour to devote to it.

When I browse boxrec sometimes I'll check out George Foreman's record. In the three years preceding the Ali fight Foreman fought eight times. Eight wins (of course), eight knockouts, seven of those in the second round and the other in the first. Even Mike Tyson didn't obliterate his opponents that consistently. It's not the greatest upset of all time because it's Ali. But Foreman getting KO'd must have been a hell of a shock.

Sidenote: The boxer of that eight who lasted the longest against Foreman was Clarence Boone. Boone entered with a record of 3-25-2 (2 KOs). It looks like the Foreman KO convinced Boone to hang up the gloves for good. I can't find any contemporary reports so given the sometimes erratic nature of boxing commissions and regulation, take all that with a grain of salt.

Sidenote 2: Before those fights, Foreman had fought Argentinian journeyman Gregorio Peralta twice. One fight ended with a ten round unanimous decision, Foreman won the second via 10th round TKO. Ali studied those fights to discern a tactic against Foreman.

 

[King Kamala]

I don't think I've ever watched Frazier-Ali I all the way through. (And Frazier won, his name goes first!) I need to find an hour to devote to it.

IMO, Ali is the one exception to winner's name going first. He's the most iconic athlete of the 20th century (besides maybe Babe Ruth). I'm not saying Berbick-Ali or Spinks-Ali I!

RE: Foreman but aging, second run version. Me and Pops Kamala were super bummed that the George Foreman Vs Larry Holmes 50th Birthday Bash Fight at the AstroDome in 1999 fell through. We really wanted to see who the better guy was. I also remember he was close to coming back in 2004 for his 55th Birthday but his wife put the kibosh on it.

Mid '00s heavyweight division was so bad, I feel like fiftysomething George might have actually gotten a title shot. Imagine a clinchfest between old George and John Ruiz OR OLD GEORGE VS NIKOLAI VALUEV!

 

[Mickey Massuco]

I don't think I've ever watched Frazier-Ali I all the way through. (And Frazier won, his name goes first!) I need to find an hour to devote to it.

When I browse boxrec sometimes I'll check out George Foreman's record. In the three years preceding the Ali fight Foreman fought eight times. Eight wins (of course), eight knockouts, seven of those in the second round and the other in the first. Even Mike Tyson didn't obliterate his opponents that consistently. It's not the greatest upset of all time because it's Ali. But Foreman getting KO'd must have been a hell of a shock.

Sidenote: The boxer of that eight who lasted the longest against Foreman was Clarence Boone. Boone entered with a record of 3-25-2 (2 KOs). It looks like the Foreman KO convinced Boone to hang up the gloves for good. I can't find any contemporary reports so given the sometimes erratic nature of boxing commissions and regulation, take all that with a grain of salt.

Sidenote 2: Before those fights, Foreman had fought Argentinian journeyman Gregorio Peralta twice. One fight ended with a ten round unanimous decision, Foreman won the second via 10th round TKO. Ali studied those fights to discern a tactic against Foreman.

What do you think of Jimmy Young? He's one of my fav boxers nobody really knows about. The only guy other than Ali to beat prime Foreman, and he was seriously undersized. Masterclass in ringcraft, that fight.

 

[alkeiper]

Young is a Philly fighter so of course I love him. Lost a decision to champion Ali that maybe should've gone to him, lost a split decision to Ken Norton that could've gone his way. He was only stopped twice, once by Earnie Shavers and post-prime to Gerry Cooney due to cuts. But he hung on too long, that badly hurt his record. Could've been heavyweight champion with just one break.

 

[Mickey Massuco]

Yeah I’m more of a peak and prime guy than someone who judges whole careers, especially in combat sports. Jimmy was a Philly fighter with super IQ which is like the best combo. His run in the 70s is p4p all time ranking level.

 

[King Kamala]

It’s insane how many talented heavyweights there were in that era. Like a dozen or so dudes that could have been champ if their prime was 5-10 years later.

 

[alkeiper]

Yeah I’m more of a peak and prime guy than someone who judges whole careers, especially in combat sports. Jimmy was a Philly fighter with super IQ which is like the best combo. His run in the 70s is p4p all time ranking level.

Agreed. Snuffbox mentioned Ezzard Charles above. Charles lost 25 career fights, about as much as any heavyweight title claiment. But Charles had an eight year stretch from 1943-51 where he compiled a record of 41-1 (24), the one loss being a disputed decision to Elmer Ray. He beat Archie Moore three times, Joe Walcott twice, Jimmy Bivins three times, knocked out Lloyd Marshall (the last man to beat him) twice, avenged the loss to Ray by KO, and defeated Joe Louis for good measure. Charles started this period as a light heavyweight and was 185 at his heaviest before Walcott defeated him on the third try.

Elmer Ray, there's another interesting fighter. His alias was "Violent" and at his peak in the '40s he reeled off 50 consecutive wins, 44 by knockout. But he couldn't secure a fight against Joe Louis and eventually Walcott beat him. Dangerous fighter.

 

[alkeiper]

Dempsey vs. Willard. This one is famous.

Check out the setup for the fight. Tex Rickard expected a big crowd in Toledo but only drew 19,500. They practically built a temporary college football stand around a boxing ring.

New-York tribune. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1866-1924, July 06, 1919, Page 4, Image 42

New-York tribune. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1866-1924, July 06, 1919, Page 4, Image 42, brought to you by Library of Congress, Washington, DC, and the National Digital Newspaper Program.

chroniclingamerica.loc.gov

The bell malfunctioned at the start of round one and cost the fighters ten seconds. That's important. It feels to me that Jess Willard fought with the Jack Johnson style defensive stance while Dempsey is utilizing more modern boxing technique. Dempsey breaks through halfway through the round and that's the fight. That a fighter does not have to go to a neutral corner means Dempsey can stand over Willard and attack him immediately. At first it's slightly sporting but after knockout three Dempsey is waiting to hit Willard from behind. Thank god you can't do this anymore.

Knockdown seven leaves Willard down for the count but Willard is saved by the bell in a round that lasted 2:50. Dempsey thinks he won the fight and they have to call him back into the ring to continue. They shouldn't have bothered. In modern boxing you would've stopped the fight. Rounds two and three see Dempsey continue the beating but no knockdowns. Willard was a tough fighter. But after three rounds his corner quits. And Willard was criticized for quitting! Good lord.

A lot of reports that Willard had a broken jaw, lost teeth, cracked ribs, etc. Other sources that he was cut up but otherwise ok. I'm inclined to believe the latter. In the film you can clearly see blood/contusions below Willard's right eye.

A fun postscript. In Omaha on July 4? There's another event you can check out!

Omaha daily bee. (Omaha [Neb.]) 187?-1922, July 03, 1919, Page 11, Image 11

Omaha daily bee. (Omaha [Neb.]) 187?-1922, July 03, 1919, Page 11, Image 11, brought to you by University of Nebraska-Lincoln Libraries, Lincoln, NE, and the National Digital Newspaper Program.

chroniclingamerica.loc.gov

 

[alkeiper]

Found myself watching Ken Burns' Unforgivable Blackness, the Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson. Johnson of course was an amazing public figure. I don't know if you can attach enough superlatives to someone who just could not be restrained by the racism of his times.

I'm tempted to say that heavyweight boxing for practical purposes did not exist after Jim Jeffries retired. Jeffries weighed 206 when he won the title from Bob Fitzsimmons, that was a large boxer for the time. His largest opponent as champion was Gus Ruhlin, who at 6'2" and 200 lbs. carried the nickname "the Akron Giant." Jeffries retires, Marvin Hart earns a claim to the title by knocking out Jack Root but loses his next fight to Tommy Burns. Burns was 5'7" and he weighed 175 for the Hart fight. He weighed 168 for Johnson. Burns' first (real) opponents after beating Hart were Fireman Jim Flynn (169) and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien (163-167). I scanned newspapers to see how strong Burns' claim to the championship truly was. By the time Burns knocked out Gunner Moir it feels like Burns is the undisputed champion.

Like I noted Burns was effectively a light heavyweight. The light heavyweight title was established (according to Wiki) in 1903. O'Brien won it but his record doesn't show many light heavyweight title fights and it feels like it fell victim of disinterest. After Burns fought Bill Squires the first time I came across a column from "Battling Nelson" saying Burns should fight Hugo Kelly and Mike Schreck. Kelly was the middleweight champion. Schreck had recently TKO'd Hart but lost by KO to Al Kaufman. Amazingly, Nelson said that after those foes the only fighter left was Jack Johnson! This is all to say that Burns is a light heavyweight, his motley crew of challengers are light heavyweights.

Skipping ahead. Johnson after defeating Burns fought six round fights against O'Brien and Tony Ross. Then he defended against Al Kaufman (officially a draw but a clear Johnson win), Stanley Ketchel (KO 12) and then the Jim Jeffries fight. Kaufman had a strong record and at that point was a deserving challenger, probably the best white heavyweight. Ketchel was the middleweight champion (he knocked out Kelly), too small to believably fight Johnson on the level but was taller than Burns.

Back to Johnson/Burns as I finally find the point. Watching the fight the first thing that stands out is Johnson is far bigger than Burns. It doesn't even look like a fair fight. Johnson was a true heavyweight at a time when there weren't that many in boxing. It's mostly a clinch fest. Johnson holds down Burns' arms, pushes Burns away, lands inside uppercuts. There's not much Burns can do. But he's game, I will give Burns that.

"The Great White Hope." There was Al Kaufman, and who else? Boxing in this era had good fighters at lighter weights. Ketchel, Joe Gans, Battling Nelson. Heavyweight boxing of course had Joe Jeanette and Sam McVea, and maybe Sam Langford though he was too small for Johnson. But they were black too. No wonder the boxing press was so desparate for Jeffries to come out of retirement.

 

[alkeiper]

One missing element in all that. Boxing in that period was barely above the law. In many places boxers had to fight under the guise of exhibition rules, hence the large number of six round fights and "newspaper decisions." I think that's a big part of the lack of good white fighters in the era. It wasn't a respectable sport, not when you could make an easier and better living playing baseball. That wasn't true for black fighters who lacked the same opportunities in other arenas.

 

[alkeiper]

What does a bare knuckle fight look like? A contemporary account of the Sullivan/Kilrain fight. This was the last major bare knuckle fight, Sullivan insisted on adopting the London Prize Rules afterwards.

Los Angeles daily herald. [microfilm reel] (Los Angeles [Calif.]) 1884-1890, July 09, 1889, Page 4, Image 4

Los Angeles daily herald. [microfilm reel] (Los Angeles [Calif.]) 1884-1890, July 09, 1889, Page 4, Image 4, brought to you by University of California, Riverside; Riverside, CA, and the National Digital Newspaper Program.

chroniclingamerica.loc.gov

 

[snuffbox]

That article mentions that one of Sullivan's seconds for the Kilrain fight was William Muldoon. Muldoon was one of the first major stars of professional wrestling.

 

[alkeiper]

Muldoon famously trained Sullivan to the point where it launched a second career for Muldoon. He ended up launching a health institute and when the New York State Athletic Commission was established Muldoon was its first chairman. He is enshrined in the International Boxing Hall of Fame along with his wrestling credentials.

 

[alkeiper]

Digging into Jess Willard a bit. One of the other "white hopes" of the era was a fellow giant by the name of Fred Fulton. 6'6", he started boxing in 1913. Fulton's record was spotty at the beginning. 11 wins, 4 losses. Two of those losses by KO, two by DQ. But in 1915 Fulton started a winning streak. Ten wins in '15, five more in 1916. Fulton lost by DQ to Carl Morris (another big man) but followed that up by knocking out Sam Langford. Fulton was the first boxer to KO Langford in over a decade. But Jess Willard at this time was making money traveling in a circus and had only fought once since winning the title. Fulton continued piling up wins, a DQ loss to a fighter named Texas Tate was avenged a few weeks later. Fulton and Willard finally agreed to a fight in 1918, but with America entering WWI the promoter called off the fight. (Remember Jack Dempsey was called a slacker for not joining the armed forces. Public sentiment was very much against athletes.)

With no Willard title fight, Fulton met Dempsey and lost in about 20 seconds. Dempsey got the Willard fight the next year. Fulton apparently claimed he and Dempsey were supposed to fight an exhibition and Dempsey double crossed him. Claiming a fight was supposed to be fixed was a novel defense. Between that and Fulton's quick exit, the public had no desire to see Dempsey and Fulton fight again. Eventually Fulton lost more frequently and took a dive in at least one fight. He was probably good enough to fight for the championship at his peak but if he won it only would've been because Willard was a weak champion. FWIW, Ring Magazine rated Fulton #98 of its 100 greatest punchers of all time in 2003.

 

[snuffbox]

Gunboat Smith was another good "white hope." They'd all lose at least 7 out of ten to Johnson, Langford, Jeannette, and McVey but a few of them were at least Gerry Cooney good.

 

[snuffbox]

More recent history but I don't think Erik Morales gets enough credit for winning the first fight with Pacquaio.

 

[Mickey Massuco]

Doesn’t get enough respect period. One of the best p4p boxers of his era.

 

[snuffbox]

I agree. I think he's the second best Mexican fighter of all time.

 

[alkeiper]

Random as hell. I'm looking at Gerald McClellan's record. Starting August 13, 1991...

TKO 1 Sammy Brooks
TKO 1 John Mugabe
TKO 1 Lester Yarbrough
TKO 1 Carl Sullivan
TKO 1 Steve Harvey
TKO 2 Tyrone Moore
TKO 5 Julian Jackson (wins the WBC Middleweight title)
KO 1 Jay Bell
TKO 1 Gilbert Batiste
KO 1 Julian Jackson

Holy hell that's a dangerous puncher. If McClellan had not suffered brain damage in the Benn fight I think that fight would be considered an all time classic. But the circumstances make it uncomfortable to watch.

 

[alkeiper]

Most fans probably don't know Young Stribling. A light heavyweight in the 1920s, he moved up to heavyweight when there was no such thing as a cruiserweight division. In 1931 Stribling fought Max Schmeling for the World's Heavyweight championship. The referee stopped the fight with 14 seconds to go in the fifteenth round, a TKO victory for Schmeling. Stribling fought 291 professional fights and that was his ONLY knockout loss.

 

[snuffbox]

I've never been able to rewatch Benn-McClellan.

 

[Mickey Massuco]

Nobody should watch that at all, really.

 

[alkeiper]

Sometimes you get stuck in a rabbit hole watching disaster footage. I've watched Mancini-Kim and Griffith-Paret for the same reason. I don't think there's any great joy or value to it, but I do think referees should see these fights to identify warning signs.