Black Lives Matter Enough For A Thread

[909]

http://gawker.com/donald-trump-supporters-filmed-kicking-punching-black-1743981571?

I don't even

 

[NYU]

I consider myself a moderate leaning towards the liberal side. I fully intend on giving my vote to Hilary or Bernie next year. With that being said...

I don't feel any outrage about this protestor getting smacked around. I just don't. Yes, freedom of speech and all that, but this protestor had to know what he was doing was going to be incendiary and had to expect people would be upset and he would be forcibly removed. When did it become okay to loudly drown out and interrupt candidates during their stump speeches? Just because Hilary and Bernie were receptive to hearing them out (Bernie I thought came across even a little pathetic with just HOW fine he was with BLM bringing his rally to a standstill) does not mean you should expect every candidate -- or his supporters -- to be okay with that. I personally hate it and think it totally overshadows and damages the message of Black Lives Matter because it's making the group look too brash and militant. People are going to ignore whatever point they're trying to make because they're coming off as extremist with these outbursts.

Trump is blunt. That's what he is and that's how he's done well in the polls up until this point. He's your loud, politically incorrect uncle running for President. Him yelling at his security to "get his ass out of there" is expected and, in my opinion, not all that shocking. Him saying that is not even all that unwarranted. You don't want to see it get physical like that but, again, I think that protestor knew this was a possibility and thus, I really cant muster much sympathy for him. He's playing the political game like everyone else.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

You aren't talking about a protester being roughly hauled out by security. It's a group of people trying to beat the shit out of someone after Trump encouraged people to toss him out. Whether he knew he might be taking a risk or not doesn't really matter because it doesn't justify the behavior of the crowd. They took things into their own hands and should be arrested. They're the ones I have no sympathy for.

 

[KOAB]

Meh that's not too bad. By the description of some people in chat I thought I'd be seeing someone needing a medic.

 

[devo]

The optics of BLM's tactics aside (I happen to agree with you, these interruptions aren't doing much more than bolstering those who consider the protesters to be uppity loudmouths), there's no excuse for demonstrators to be treated in that manner. BLM did not invent speech interruptions. Nor is it a coincidence that it's (as far as I've read) only at Trump rallies that protesters have been attacked by attendees. If you want to make the argument that this plays into the gentleman's hand, that's fine, but please don't excuse mob violence by saying that it was anticipated or even goaded.

 

[Sex Machine Gun]

The emerging pattern of this kind of behavior by a specific candidate's audiences is the worrisome part. Being loud and interrupting something doesn't do much anyway unless you roll with serious numbers. I'll really start worrying if they beat a white guy. Send out a hot white chick to yell out contrary opinions. If the crowd beats her then we're dealing with some kind of seriously, stop-this-now-at-absolutely-all-costs by both parties, terrifying monster it may not be possible to tranquilize. This sounds goofy, but think about it. The white female is the most guarded concept in all of "silent majority America."

 

[Brooklyn Zoo]

BLM is the new rape victim asking for it

 

[Jingus]

How does Black Lives Matter even count as a "group", anyway? It's a hashtag. They've got no organization, no real leadership, no formal roster, no infrastructure whatsoever. People are acting like BLM is its own political party with card-carrying members and internal memos and an official mission statement and all that shit. In reality, it's like the Occupy movement, it's just a bunch of mostly-unconnected civilians who are adopting this label independently.

 

[bigolsmitty]

When did it become okay to loudly drown out and interrupt candidates during their stump speeches? Just because Hilary and Bernie were receptive to hearing them out (Bernie I thought came across even a little pathetic with just HOW fine he was with BLM bringing his rally to a standstill) does not mean you should expect every candidate -- or his supporters -- to be okay with that. I personally hate it and think it totally overshadows and damages the message of Black Lives Matter because it's making the group look too brash and militant. People are going to ignore whatever point they're trying to make because they're coming off as extremist with these outbursts.

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

 

[NYU]

When did it become okay to loudly drown out and interrupt candidates during their stump speeches? Just because Hilary and Bernie were receptive to hearing them out (Bernie I thought came across even a little pathetic with just HOW fine he was with BLM bringing his rally to a standstill) does not mean you should expect every candidate -- or his supporters -- to be okay with that. I personally hate it and think it totally overshadows and damages the message of Black Lives Matter because it's making the group look too brash and militant. People are going to ignore whatever point they're trying to make because they're coming off as extremist with these outbursts.

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

I seriously hope you're not trying to compare the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s with Black Lives Matter. The Civil Rights Movement was genuinely fighting for equal rights -- they had a common, unified cause and they genuinely used nonviolent, peaceful resistance to accomplish their cause. Black Lives Matter is not a cohesive moment. It's a disorganized, confused, vague banner that people are grouping around to vent their frustration in a non-constructive, misguided way. Like loudly interrupting Bernie Sanders' rallies and forcing him off the stage -- a man that has advocated for equality his entire political career.

For once, a BLM protester just happened to wander into a crowd as belligerent as themselves. What you saw in that video was a bunch of idiots colliding with each other. BLM is the same group that won't even let photographers into their "safe space" on public property. They got physical with that photographer at the University of Missouri, pushing and shoving him, but that whole thing was swept under the rug by the liberal media pretty quickly (Oh my God, I actually used the term "liberal media" and I wasn't being facetious). The BLM movement has already had physical confrontations with people, called for killing cops on the Internet, shown holding guns on social media under the BLM name, etc. Their message might be just, but their actions have been inflammatory. People on both ends of the wingnut spectrum have lost sight of right and wrong and are willing to follow the same example of idiocy. To compare that movement to Martin Luther King is insanity.

 

[devo]

Either BLM is a group or a "disorganized, confused, vague banner." Can't have it both ways. If it's the former, stop conflating the extreme actions of a few with the peaceful methods of the rest of its members. The demonstrators in Minneapolis over the last few days never breathed a threatening or violent word - on the contrary, the only potential violence I saw came from "white pride" nitwits heading over there armed to combat "black terrorism." If it's the latter, stop blaming BLM for the aforementioned extremism and recognize that what you're describing is merely people, as you say, sometimes "vent[ing] their frustration in a non-constructive, misguided way."

Also, what are demonstrators (BLM or not) fighting for today if not equal rights? You seem to feel that that's what the goal of the Civil Rights Movement was but not that of modern activism. Also also, you completely sidestepped your original argument of the demonstrator deserving to have the shit kicked out of him because Trump is "loud" and "politically incorrect."

 

[NYU]

Either BLM is a group or a "disorganized, confused, vague banner." Can't have it both ways. If it's the former, stop conflating the extreme actions of a few with the peaceful methods of the rest of its members. The demonstrators in Minneapolis over the last few days never breathed a threatening or violent word - on the contrary, the only potential violence I saw came from "white pride" nitwits heading over there armed to combat "black terrorism." If it's the latter, stop blaming BLM for the aforementioned extremism and recognize that what you're describing is merely people, as you say, sometimes "vent[ing] their frustration in a non-constructive, misguided way."

Also, what are demonstrators (BLM or not) fighting for today if not equal rights? You seem to feel that that's what the goal of the Civil Rights Movement was but not that of modern activism. Also also, you completely sidestepped your original argument of the demonstrator deserving to have the shit kicked out of him because Trump is "loud" and "politically incorrect."

Okay. I will elaborate.

BLM is a group of people aligned under a disorganized, confused, vague banner. Much like Jingus said, they are very similar to the Occupy Wall Street movement years ago. People that came together to decry economic inequality but ultimately had such a muddled, mixed message that progress wasn't reached because they couldn't agree on what the end game was.

BLM wants to argue that Black Lives Matter. They want to end systematic racism. Okay, cool. I'm fully on board with that. So....what's the plan? Where do we begin? I fully agreed with the original message that certain police officers needed to stop with that shoot-first mentality -- that they were treating blacks dangerously unequally and different from whites as clearly seen in some recent cases -- and they needed to face consequences for their actions. But somehow, that's no longer the central message.

Coming from the main page of the BLM's own website: "Black Lives Matter is a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes. It goes beyond the narrow nationalism that can be prevalent within some Black communities, which merely call on Black people to love Black, live Black and buy Black, keeping straight cis Black men in the front of the movement while our sisters, queer and trans and disabled folk take up roles in the background or not at all. Black Lives Matter affirms the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, Black-undocumented folks, folks with records, women and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. It centers those that have been marginalized within Black liberation movements. It is a tactic to (re)build the Black liberation movement."

That's a muddled message if I've ever seen it that is open to many different interpretations by all of its different members. Martin Luther King Jr fought for the end of segregation. Boom. Done. A worthy and clear-cut cause. There is none of that here. There is a general feeling of "We are being mistreated by the system" that aligns all who believe in the BLM Cause, and it breaks down after that. They want the candidates to address systemic racism but I don't think I've really heard much of a plan of action from them beyond that. They bring the anger but not any solutions.

You can't totally disregard the extreme actions of some of its followers because those extreme actions are a direct result of the group being so disorganized. They're not sure what the end game is. You have activists in New York City and Minneapolis chanting "Pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon!" a day after Texas Sheriff Deputy Goforth was killed. You have activists wearing shirts saying "Assata taught me" in reference to Assata Shakur killing a New Jersey trooper in 1973. In Dartmouth a few days ago, you had BLM protesters storm the library shouting epithets and chasing out people who were studying or just trying to ignore what was going on. The list goes on. I can provide more examples. Yeah, sure, all of these things are non-violent, but it's hateful rhetoric. Just as dangerous and inflammatory as the hateful rhetoric the Republican candidates are spouting in regards to Muslims....only it's not being painted that way. There are most certainly plenty and plenty of protesters who are doing it peacefully...but there are also plenty who are not. To say "Well, you have to ignore the extreme actions of some of its members" is irresponsible because those are the actions that could potentially lead to violence down the road.

You're being disingenuous when you say the only potential violence came from "white pride" nitwits because of all this can, and possibly eventually will, lead to violence, whether it's retaliatory or not. You can agree with the overall message of the cause but not agree at all with the methods being used or the rhetoric being spouted. That's where I stand.

I haven't side-stepped my original argument at all. If we're being honest, my original argument was that I didn't agree with BLM protesters loudly drowning out candidate stump speeches and didn't know when that became OK and business as usual. You saying I said the demonstrator "deserved" to have the shit kicked out of him is disingenuous once again. I didn't say that. I said I'm not outraged by it. I also said Trump was not unwarranted saying "Get his ass out of there" because he was being a disturbance to absolutely everyone else in the room. I repeat my original point that the demonstrator went into that room knowing full well what was likely going to happen and used that for the publicity...thus I don't give him my sympathy. I also said I wouldn't want to see it get physical -- which would be the opposite of that whole "he deserved to have the shit kicked out of him" quote you attributed to me -- but I digress.

I've said my viewpoint. I'm not really looking to go back and forth on this like I would have on these boards ten years ago. And I'm not about to let my Sunday get derailed with checking these boards every hour and quoting your posts piece by piece ala MikeSC or Y2Jerk. The Jets can derail my Sunday all by themselves, thank you very much. So Happy Sunday,

 

[bigolsmitty]

Your argument about the guy at the Trump rally just doesn't hold water. Of course he knew it was going to be incendiary, protesting at what's basically the closest thing to a large fascist rally that exists in the US. Without drawing moral equivalency, Indian anti-colonial followers of Gandhi probably knew the British were going to beat them up and the CRM protesters in the 60s probably knew that they were going to stir up shit among southern racists. What's your point? That protests should never anger anyone?

 

[NYU]

Going to a Trump rally and yelling out "Trump is a racist" is not much of a protest and serves no larger purpose. It's being incendiary for the sake of being incendiary. What was he ultimately hoping to accomplish by going there, yelling that, and smacking people's signs as he was walking through? What was the message that I -- a non-member of BLM -- was supposed to take away from that? Rep Joe Wilson was crucified in the media (and rightfully so) for shouting "You Lie" during an Obama address and interrupting him to express his personal feelings. Yet I'm supposed to respect this protester for being disruptive and drowning out Trump during his speech here? Nah. Can't have it both ways.

We just like it because, hey, it's Trump and fuck that guy. But that doesn't make it right. You can't gauge it's acceptability on whether or not we like the guy it's happening to.

If that was a "political protest", well then, that term's definition gets looser by the day.

 

[Gary]

Here's the thing though: they absolutely have the right to say and do that. Kick them out? Sure, whatever (though let's be honest, they aren't saying anything that isn't true) However, punching them and whatnot? That's crossing a line. Brutality is not an answer. Either just kick them out or try to debate them.

 

[bigolsmitty]

From the videos I saw, some guy was shoving a Trump sign in his face and he pushed it away.

I already see the protest as pretty valuable. Illuminates the Trump movement and Trump himself ("maybe he should have been roughed up") as a bunch of racist brownshirts. Many of us may have already realized this, but video helps to clarify.

 

[bigolsmitty]

They want the candidates to address systemic racism but I don't think I've really heard much of a plan of action from them beyond that. They bring the anger but not any solutions.

This came out a few months ago:

I'll address my point with posting the Letter from the Birmingham Jail in more detail later, but the point is that "moderates" pretty much always think protesters against injustice are going too far. "Well, I agree that cops shouldn't gun down black folks like hotcakes, but do you really have to yell about it?"

 

[bigolsmitty]

You saying I said the demonstrator "deserved" to have the shit kicked out of him is disingenuous once again. I didn't say that. I said I'm not outraged by it.

This is pretty much a mealy mouthed distinction without a difference.

Your position is functionally the same as Trump's.

Now Trump is spreading blatantly false lies a) claiming that Muslims in New Jersey cheered the 9/11 attacks and b) spreading terribly false statistics about black on white crime, complete with racist pictures!

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/11/donald-trumps-hatemongering-moves-african-americans

But heaven forbid someone go to his rally and call his racism racism.

 

[KOAB]

You saying I said the demonstrator "deserved" to have the shit kicked out of him is disingenuous once again. I didn't say that. I said I'm not outraged by it.

This is pretty much a mealy mouthed distinction without a difference.

Your position is functionally the same as Trump's.

Now Trump is spreading blatantly false lies a) claiming that Muslims in New Jersey cheered the 9/11 attacks and b) spreading terribly false statistics about black on white crime, complete with racist pictures!

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/11/donald-trumps-hatemongering-moves-african-americans

But heaven forbid someone go to his rally and call his racism racism.

It's like the whole campaign of his is Cunningham's Law, mixed with trolling, and topped off with never admitting he's wrong whenever someone confronts him on it during debates, interviews, etc.

It sure is fascinating to watch.

 

[devo]

Posting this here since we don't have a BLM-and-related-matters-thread and we were discussing the matter here earlier. The white supremacists that were threatening violence on the Minneapolis protesters followed through.

https://twitter.com/stellierkstp/status/669029413275594752

 

[bigolsmitty]

Posting this here since we don't have a BLM-and-related-matters-thread and we were discussing the matter here earlier. The white supremacists that were threatening violence on the Minneapolis protesters followed through.

https://twitter.com/stellierkstp/status/669029413275594752

I wonder if NYU feels sympathy for people these white supremacists shot, since, once again:

...a BLM protester just happened to wander into a crowd as belligerent as themselves.

 

[NYU]

Yeah. Me saying I didn't agree with the protester drowning out Trump's speech by yelling out "Fuck Donald Trump" and consequently didn't have a problem with him being removed = me being fine that BLM protesters were shot by white supremacists.

Way to make a gigantic jump to some ridiculous extreme. You're a fucking fool.

 

[devo]

Footage was just released of the shooting of Lacquan McDonald by a Chicago police officer thirteen months ago. The confrontation begins at approximately 5:15 - please do not watch if you don't want to see a man shot dead in the street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix2N6_jLAgA

Officer Van Dyke (who fired off most of his 16 shots after McDonald had already been incapacitated) has been charged with first-degree murder, though it's worth noting that said charge only came after a judge ordered the above video to be released. The city paid a $5 million dollar settlement to the family before they could even file a lawsuit.

 

[Damaramu]

So what was his crime? Because I'm sure the anti-BLM people will be like
"He was reaching into his waistband!"
and
"Shouldn't have been running from the cops!"
and
"If you don't break the law you won't get shot by the cops!"

 

[ViciousFish]

He's the last officer on scene, he fires about 6 seconds after exiting his cruiser, he shoots him 16 fucking times (13 of which while he was on the ground) and other cops on the scene have said shooting wasn't necessary and there's still people saying it was a completely reasonable shooting.

 

[ViciousFish]

He was allegedly (you can use that word when more than just white people are suspects apparently) breaking into cars and had a 4" knife.

 

[bigolsmitty]

Yeah. Me saying I didn't agree with the protester drowning out Trump's speech by yelling out "Fuck Donald Trump" and consequently didn't have a problem with him being removed = me being fine that BLM protesters were shot by white supremacists.

Way to make a gigantic jump to some ridiculous extreme. You're a fucking fool.

A few quick points, in summation:

-You claimed that you agree with BLM's overall thrust, that cops should stop gunning down black folks, but, as a "moderate" you just thought they weren't being nice enough about the whole thing. I cited King's famous letter, because this was the exact argument white moderates were making to him at the time, and his response is pretty timeless.

-You said BLM had no concrete goals. I posted concrete goals related to policing reform that have been out for some time. I'll make one further point related to effectiveness as well. As distasteful as the interruption of Bernie Sanders may have been, it was effective. His campaign has focused on police reform issues considerably more since then. I touched on this earlier in the election thread.

-You said you "had no sympathy" for the guy attacked by Trump's brownshirts (which is somehow totally different than saying he deserved it) because, essentially, you think BLM has no concrete goals and you disagree with its methods. If you "have no sympathy" for the violence against him, why are were to assume that you do have sympathy for other BLM protesters who get violently attacked? At what level of violence does your sympathy for BLM activists attacked by racists kick in? It's not at getting punched and stomped, but it is apparently activated with gunshots. What about if they were hit with pipes? Ball bats? Stabbed with knives? It's just not clear where exactly your sympathy is switched on.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

“This is a city where some of the biggest battles of the civil rights movement happened, where four little girls got bombed up, so we aren’t accepting of anything like that kind of talk down here,” [Mercutio Southall, Jr.] tells Think Progress. “I mean, this man came to our city a couple of weeks before Christmas, saying we should not let in Middle Eastern refugees. If I’m not mistaken, I think Jesus was a Middle Eastern refugee. So we were not going to stand idly by and see the rise of the next Hitler. We knew we had to stand for something. It was just a sea of white faces,” he continued. “A lady kicked me in the stomach. A man kicked me in the chest. They called me n*****, monkey, and they shouted ‘all lives matter’ while they were kicking and punching me. So for all the people who are still confused at this point, they proved what ‘all lives matter’ meant. It means, ‘Shut up, n*****.’”

http://globalgrind.com/2015/11/24/man-attacked-at-donald-trump-rally-mercutio-southall-jr-speaks-out-compares-trump-to-hitler/


I had to cringe a little at the Godwin-ization, but damned if that bit about Jesus being a Middle Eastern refugee wasn't a good line.

 

[Mickey Massuco]

You have to listen to a man named Mercutio Southall, Jr.

 

[Twisted Intestine]

Yeah. Me saying I didn't agree with the protester drowning out Trump's speech by yelling out "Fuck Donald Trump" and consequently didn't have a problem with him being removed = me being fine that BLM protesters were shot by white supremacists.

Way to make a gigantic jump to some ridiculous extreme. You're a fucking fool.

A few quick points, in summation:

-You claimed that you agree with BLM's overall thrust, that cops should stop gunning down black folks, but, as a "moderate" you just thought they weren't being nice enough about the whole thing. I cited King's famous letter, because this was the exact argument white moderates were making to him at the time, and his response is pretty timeless.

-You said BLM had no concrete goals. I posted concrete goals related to policing reform that have been out for some time. I'll make one further point related to effectiveness as well. As distasteful as the interruption of Bernie Sanders may have been, it was effective. His campaign has focused on police reform issues considerably more since then. I touched on this earlier in the election thread.

-You said you "had no sympathy" for the guy attacked by Trump's brownshirts (which is somehow totally different than saying he deserved it) because, essentially, you think BLM has no concrete goals and you disagree with its methods. If you "have no sympathy" for the violence against him, why are were to assume that you do have sympathy for other BLM protesters who get violently attacked? At what level of violence does your sympathy for BLM activists attacked by racists kick in? It's not at getting punched and stomped, but it is apparently activated with gunshots. What about if they were hit with pipes? Ball bats? Stabbed with knives? It's just not clear where exactly your sympathy is switched on.

Just use some common sense and don't try to turn what people say into something much larger than it is. NYU saying he doesn't have sympathy for someone interrupting Trump in a room full of his supporters getting rouged up does not equal him not having sympathy for protesters who got gunned down. Yes I could follow your "logic" to make a case of NYU looking as bad as you want him to be, but it's simply not what he said and I don't get the impression that it's how he feels.