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Measuring Greatness in the NBA by Decade (egghead alert)

AA484

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Based on some discussion that @cobainwasmurdered and I had in chat a few nights ago:

Trying to determine an "unbiased" method of measuring greatness in the NBA is always something I've been interested in. For years, I've played around with different ways of ranking based on measurable sets of data. Of course, I've seen the majority of players since the very early 90s play but I can't remember everyone and I certainly watched more of some players than others. As a result, trying to produce a list without using measurables or data is going to result in a "biased" list, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

The easy part is narrowing down the four categories of data. All contribute equally to the final ranking, but -- depending on the player -- some categories may contribute more for one player than another. Also, I like tinkering with ratings by decade as styles of play are often similar over a ten year period and it allows for more recognition of players who may get lost in the shuffle in a ranking across all decades. Also, I decided to keep it post-merger -- there is just too much data missing from before that time.

I also looked at the NBA's All-Decade Teams released during this year's 75th anniversary and looked at who made the cut for each decade (note: whatever year the Finals occurred in was the decade I assigned for the entire year, e.g., 1999-2000 falls into the 2000s). I then looked at the chosen data (see below) for each player selected and weighted more heavily those that seemed to influence placement more. Obviously, an MVP is gonna show up on every list so that piece of data weighs heavily. Also, things like total points are going to weigh more heavily than the rest of the statistical categories because that's what voters (not only in the all-decade lists but in HOF selections) value more. The difference is subtle, but enough to influence placement in a cat. Bored yet?

Anyway, back to the four sets of data:

1. Statistical output: The easiest data to input as it's all raw numbers. I decided to go with the "big three" (PTS/REB/AST), PER (for the metric nerds), and annual leaderboard placement to reward guys who may have done really well in a cat for a couple of years but their total decade's numbers don't show it. This (and PER) helped guys who played for less than a full decade to pull a little closer to those who played the entirety.
2. Awards: This is essentially the "eye test" portion. Obviously, writers and voters are biased, but it at least gives me its own set of measurable data that I can use for ranking purposes. MVP obviously weighed the highest. I also considered MVP runners-up, All-NBA selections (more weight placed on 1st than 2nd or 3rd), DPOY, All-Defensive selections, and All-Star selections.
3. "Peak" value of a player: How good was this player in their best year? This was the hardest to measure, but I was able to come up with a combination of max-win shares combined with max-award voter shares to reach a suitable number. I considered adding in max-PER, but the standard deviation among the top players was small enough that I'm not sure it would make much of a difference, other than widen the gap between offensive-minded players (which PER favors) and guys like Rodman and Ben Wallace.
4. Postseason performance: Combination of cumulative statistical output that was multiplied based on how far a player got in the playoffs, as well as what they contributed to the squad. I only gave "bonuses" for reaching the conference finals or higher. I also gave a boost in this cat for Finals MVP, as I thought it more appropriate to use that here than in the awards section.

Now, with all of the egghead shit out of the way, let's look at the sample decade I used: the 2000s (I feel like 90s are done to death). For now, only players who made the 2000s all-decade team linked above are going to be listed since that's who I used to establish the "standards" that the remaining players would be measured against. I'll probably go back and add to this list when I do some more notables:

15. Amar'e Stoudemire
14. Paul Pierce
13. Ben Wallace
12. Tracy McGrady
11. Chauncey Billups
10. Dwyane Wade
9. Jason Kidd
8. Steve Nash
7. Allen Iverson
6. Dirk Nowitzki
5. LeBron James
4. Kevin Garnett
3. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Kobe Bryant
1. Tim Duncan


Number 1s in each cat (interesting in that a different name appeared for each one):

Stats: KG
Awards: Duncan
Peak: LeBron
Playoffs: Kobe

Number 15s in each cat:

Stats: Ben Wallace
Awards: Paul Pierce
Peak: Paul Pierce
Playoffs: Stoudemire (barely below McGrady, whose score in this cat killed his final ranking)

I'll be updating this to post some more names for the aughts and other decades.
 

HarleyQuinn

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alfdogg

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I doubt that there will ever be an "unbiased" method of measuring this type of thing, and that's for the best, because it makes for great conversation.

At first glance, the only guy I would say is out of place is Chauncey Billups. I know the Pistons were good for a long time and while an argument could be made that he was their best player, but Ben Wallace was the identity of those teams and I would always hold him in higher regard. I do get though that his post-Pistons years probably hurt him quite a bit through this metric.

Interested to know where Parker and Ginobili ranked on this? They're kind of in that same boat to me.
 

AA484

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I doubt that there will ever be an "unbiased" method of measuring this type of thing, and that's for the best, because it makes for great conversation.

At first glance, the only guy I would say is out of place is Chauncey Billups. I know the Pistons were good for a long time and while an argument could be made that he was their best player, but Ben Wallace was the identity of those teams and I would always hold him in higher regard. I do get though that his post-Pistons years probably hurt him quite a bit through this metric.

Interested to know where Parker and Ginobili ranked on this? They're kind of in that same boat to me.
Ended up having Parker above Stoudemire and Ginobili below. Stoudemire scored higher than Ginobili in everything but playoff score, which is probably fair. I'm working on putting the "all-decade" honorable mentions (Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Carmelo, Pau Gasol, Ginobili, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Bosh, Elton Brand & Gilbert Arenas) in.

I still don't completely like it because it's tough to get the different categories to "equally" correlate, even using stuff like z-scores. May do some more tweaking.
 

AA484

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I played around with a new system and found this one to be more satisfactory than the previous one. I balanced main cats (playoffs, stats, peak, awards) and tested it on the 90s. Still some stuff I didn't like (defensive-minded players too low, guys like Rod Strickland maybe too high) but I'm satisfied with it. No matter how I swing it, it punishes guys who had no playoff success (Nique, Grant Hill, Mitch Richmond), but that's part of the game.

Top 100

100 Jamal Mashburn
99 Kendall Gill
98 Sam Perkins
97 Glenn Robinson
96 B.J. Armstrong
95 Vernon Maxwell
94 Dana Barros
93 Bill Laimbeer
92 Alvin Robertson
91 Antonio McDyess
90 Allan Houston
89 Jerome Kersey
88 Dražen Petrović
87 Clifford Robinson
86 A.C. Green
85 Toni Kukoč
84 Robert Horry
83 Avery Johnson
82 Derrick McKey
81 Jeff Malone
80 Jim Jackson
79 Michael Adams
78 Kobe Bryant
77 Derek Harper
76 Kenny Smith
75 Robert Parish
74 Bernard King
73 Ron Harper
72 John Starks
71 Mark Jackson
70 Christian Laettner
69 Terrell Brandon
68 Nick Anderson
67 Kevin McHale
66 Kevin Garnett
65 Vlade Divac
64 Rik Smits
63 Nick Van Exel
62 Buck Williams
61 Tom Gugliotta
60 Juwan Howard
59 Eddie Jones
58 Larry Bird
57 Kevin Willis
56 Tom Chambers
55 Reggie Lewis
54 Charles Oakley
53 Kenny Anderson
52 Allen Iverson
51 Anthony Mason
50 Hersey Hawkins
49 Danny Manning
48 Sean Elliott
47 Larry Nance
46 Otis Thorpe
45 Steve Smith
44 Dan Majerle
43 Chris Webber
42 Derrick Coleman
41 Terry Porter
40 James Worthy
39 Jason Kidd
38 Vin Baker
37 Jeff Hornacek
36 Isiah Thomas
35 Mitch Richmond
34 Dennis Rodman
33 Mookie Blaylock
32 Glen Rice
31 Dominique Wilkins
30 Horace Grant
29 Detlef Schrempf
28 Brad Daugherty
27 Grant Hill
26 Larry Johnson
25 Latrell Sprewell
24 Dikembe Mutombo
23 Rod Strickland
22 Chris Mullin
21 Mark Price
20 Magic Johnson
19 Tim Duncan
18 Joe Dumars
17 Reggie Miller
16 Shawn Kemp
15 Kevin Johnson
14 Tim Hardaway
13 Anfernee Hardaway
12 Gary Payton
11 Alonzo Mourning
10 John Stockton
9 Clyde Drexler
8 Patrick Ewing
7 Scottie Pippen
6 Shaquille O'Neal
5 Charles Barkley
4 Karl Malone
3 David Robinson
2 Hakeem Olajuwon
1 Michael Jordan
 
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alfdogg

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Seems crazy that Magic cracks the top 20 based on 2 1/2 seasons out of the decade. Easy to forget that he was the MVP just a year before he had to retire
 

AA484

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Seems crazy that Magic cracks the top 20 based on 2 1/2 seasons out of the decade. Easy to forget that he was the MVP just a year before he had to retire

Yeah, he was MVP and (I believe) runner-up the following year, plus he took the Lakers to the Finals in '91
 

AA484

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More tinkering with 90s: So I went back and looked at the 75th anniversary decade list and determined which metrics were most important based on 1) Who made the list and 2) Which team did they finish on (1st, 2nd, 3rd?)

Based on who made those teams and which team they were selected to, I got the following percentages:

43% awards
40% peak
9% stats
7% titles

Three of the 5 first teamers had no title. Jordan had 6 and Pippen -- who also had 6 -- got 2nd team. Hakeem (1st team) had 2. The only other multiple title winner, Rodman, finished 3rd team, so titles had less weight than I suspected.

Stats also didn't seem to matter as much as you had two guys (Penny and Grant Hill) who only played in roughly half the decade while another, Rodman, wasn't a stat sheet stuffer outside of boards.

The two heaviest metrics were peak and awards. Peak made sense, but weighing it so heavily rewards guys who had short decades (Magic, Duncan) and whom panelists seemed to ignore, while diminishing the scores of guys who played the whole decade and had good numbers and/or moderate or better postseason success (think Horace Grant, Hornacek, etc). I guess I could trim it further by "cutting" scores for guys who played less than, say, 15000 minutes in the decade (the qualifier for "career PER"), but I just decided to keep it simple. These are the rankings using the above percentages to further weigh the rankings (* indicates a player who played less than 15,000 minutes in the decade):

1 Michael Jordan (1)
2 Karl Malone (2)
3 David Robinson (3)
4 Hakeem Olajuwon (4)
5 Charles Barkley (5)
6 Scottie Pippen (6)
7 Shaquille O'Neal (7)
8 Magic Johnson (23)
9 Patrick Ewing (8)
10 Clyde Drexler (9)
11 Gary Payton (10)
12 John Stockton (11)
13 Alonzo Mourning (12)
14 Tim Duncan (31)
15 Tim Hardaway (13)
16 Anfernee Hardaway (15)
17 Grant Hill (14)
18 Joe Dumars (16)
19 Chris Mullin (17)
20 Dominique Wilkins (18)
21 Dennis Rodman (19)
22 Shawn Kemp (20)
23 Jason Kidd (26)
24 Mitch Richmond (21)
25 Kevin Johnson (22)
26 Allen Iverson (38)
27 Mark Price (24)
28 Glen Rice (25)
29 Dikembe Mutombo (27)
30 Reggie Miller (28)
31 Latrell Sprewell (29)
32 Vin Baker (30)
33 Tom Chambers (36)
34 Mookie Blaylock (32)
35 Larry Bird (58)
36 Larry Johnson (33)
37 Chris Webber (39)
38 Horace Grant (34)
39 Rod Strickland (35)
40 Detlef Schrempf (37)
41 Jeff Hornacek (40)
42 Derrick Coleman (41)
43 Dan Majerle (42)
44 James Worthy (48)
45 Kenny Anderson (43)
46 Terry Porter (44)
47 Charles Oakley (45)
48 Anthony Mason (46)
49 Brad Daugherty (55)
50 Kevin Willis (47)
51 Buck Williams (49)
52 Kevin Garnett (69)
53 Danny Manning (50)
54 Isiah Thomas (59)
55 Hersey Hawkins (51)
56 Sean Elliott (52)
57 Otis Thorpe (53)
58 Steve Smith (54)
59 Rik Smits (56)
60 John Starks (57)
61 Bernard King (NR)
62 Robert Parish (64)
63 Mark Jackson (60)
64 Vlade Divac (61)
65 Clifford Robinson (62)
66 Derrick McKey (63)
67 Eddie Jones (78)
68 Larry Nance (83)
69 Sam Perkins (65)
70 Tom Gugliotta (66)
71 Kevin McHale (NR)
72 B.J. Armstrong (67)
73 Terry Cummings (73)
74 A.C. Green (68)
75 Dražen Petrović (NR)
76 Juwan Howard (80)
77 Ron Harper (70)
78 Terrell Brandon (71)
79 Derek Harper (72)
80 Jerome Kersey (74)
81 Avery Johnson (75)
82 Nick Anderson (76)
83 Kenny Smith (77)
84 Robert Horry (84)
85 Dana Barros (79)
86 Antonio McDyess (NR)
87 Kobe Bryant (NR)
88 Cedric Ceballos (96)
89 Reggie Lewis (100)
90 Christian Laettner (81)
91 Alvin Robertson (97)
92 Mario Elie (82)
93 Toni Kukoč (NR)
94 Ricky Pierce (91)
95 Nick Van Exel (85)
96 Nate McMillan (94)
97 Jamal Mashburn (NR)
98 Armen Gilliam (86)
99 Kendall Gill (87)
100 Dale Davis (88)

Added: Hot Rod Williams, Vernon Maxwell, Tyrone Corbin, Muggsy Bogues, Jim Jackson, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis
 
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AA484

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Screw it, went back and added pro-rated (right word?) to >15000 MP rankings in parentheses.
 

AA484

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Here are the top 15 of the 80s using the same weighing and criteria as in the latest 90s list. I used 400 games instead of the MP just to use a different minimum requirement. Also added some numbers and accolades for each player. Stats only measure numbers for the decade.

1. Larry Bird (1980-1989)
  • 3 NBA titles, 2 NBA Finals MVPs, 5 NBA Finals appearances, 8 conference finals appearances
  • 4th in points (17,899), 6th in rebounds (6,400), 6th in assists (4,396), 5th in steals (1,300), 3rd in minutes played (27,560)
  • 3 MVPs, 9 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 8 All-NBA first teams, 3 All-Defensive second teams, 9 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1985-86 (25.8 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 6.8 apg, 2 spg, 89.6 FT%; MVP, NBA champ, Finals MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-Star)
2. Magic Johnson (1980-1989)
  • 5 NBA titles, 3 NBA Finals MVPs, 8 NBA Finals appearances, 9 conference finals appearances
  • 12th in points (13,943), 14th in rebounds (5,303), 1st in assists (8,025), 2nd in steals (1,464), 7th in minutes played (26,417)
  • 2 MVPs, 7 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 7 All-NBA first teams, 1 All-NBA second team, 9 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1986-87 (23.9 ppg, 12.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 84.8 FT%; MVP, NBA champ, Finals MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-Star)
3. Moses Malone (1980-1989)
  • 1 NBA title, 1 NBA Finals MVP, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 3 conference finals appearances
  • 2nd in points (19,082), 1st in rebounds (10,269), 14th in blocks (1,107), 2nd in minutes played (29,208)
  • 2 MVPs, 4 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 3 All-NBA first teams, 4 All-NBA second teams, 1 All-Defensive first team, 10 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1982-83 (24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 2 bpg; MVP, NBA champ, Finals MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, All-Star)
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1980-1989)
  • 5 NBA titles, 1 NBA Finals MVP, 8 NBA Finals appearances, 9 conference finals appearances
  • 5th in points (16,246), 9th in rebounds (5,980), 3rd in blocks (1,594), 10th in minutes played (25,675)
  • 1 MVP, 5 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 4 All-NBA first teams, 2 All-NBA second teams, 2 All-Defensive first teams, 1 All-Defensive second team, 10 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1979-80 (24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 3.4 bpg, 60.4 FG%; MVP, NBA champ, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, All-Star)
5. Julius Erving (1980-1987)
  • 1 NBA title, 3 NBA Finals appearances, 5 conference finals appearances
  • 15th in points (13,263), 11th in steals (1,081), 18th in blocks (983)
  • 1 MVP, 4 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 4 All-NBA first teams, 1 All-NBA second team, 8 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1980-81 (24.6 ppg, 2.1 spg, 1.8 bpg; MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-Star; conference finalist)
6. Michael Jordan (1985-1989)
  • 1 conference finals appearance
  • 18th in steals (962)
  • 1 MVP, 3 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 3 All-NBA first teams, 1 All-NBA second team, 1 DPOY, 2 All-Defensive first teams, 5 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1987-88 (35 ppg, 3.2 spg, 1.6 bpg, 53.5 FG%; MVP, DPOY, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, All-Star)
7. Sidney Moncrief (1980-1989)
  • 3 conference finals appearances
  • 19th in minutes played (22,054)
  • 1 time in top 5 of MVP voting, 1 All-NBA first team, 4 All-NBA second teams, 2 DPOY, 4 All-Defensive first team, 1 All-Defensive second team, 5 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1982-83 (22.5 ppg, 82.6 FT%; 4th in MVP voting, DPOY, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, All-Star, conference finalist)
8. Dominique Wilkins (1983-1989)
  • 7th in points (14,557)
  • 2 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 1 All-NBA first team, 2 All-NBA second teams, 1 All-NBA third team, 4 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1985-86 (30.3 ppg, 1.8 spg; All-NBA 1st team, All-Star, 2nd in MVP voting)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (1985-1989)
  • 1 NBA Finals appearance
  • 11th in blocks (1,201)
  • 2 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 3 All-NBA first teams, 1 All-NBA second team, 2 All-NBA Defensive first teams, 1 All-NBA Defensive second team, 5 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1987-88 (22.8 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.1 spg, 2.7 bpg; All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, All-Star)
10. Isiah Thomas (1982-1989)
  • 1 NBA title, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 3 conference finals appearances
  • 18th in points (12,862), 2nd in assists (6,220), 4th in steals (1,338), 13th in minutes played (23,276)
  • 1 time in top 5 of MVP voting, 3 All-NBA first teams, 2 All-NBA second teams, 8 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1985-86 (20.9 ppg, 10.8 apg, 2.2 spg; All-NBA 1st team, All-Star)
11. Bernard King (1980-1989)
  • 1 time in top 5 of MVP voting, 2 All-NBA first teams, 1 All-NBA second team, 3 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1983-84 (26.3 ppg, 57.2 FG%; All-NBA 1st team, All-Star, 2nd in MVP voting)
12. Kevin McHale (1981-1989)
  • 3 NBA titles, 5 NBA Finals appearances, 7 conference finals appearances
  • 19th in points (12,830), 16th in rebounds, 6th in blocks (1,269), 17th in minutes played (22,275)
  • 1 time in top 5 of MVP voting, 1 All-NBA first team, 3 All-NBA Defensive first teams, 2 All-NBA Defensive second teams, 5 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1986-87 (26.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 2.2 bpg, 60.4 FG%; All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, All-Star, 4th in MVP voting, NBA Finals runner-up)
13. George Gervin (1980-1986)
  • 2 conference finals appearances
  • 9th in points (14,216)
  • 2 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 3 All-NBA first teams, 1 All-NBA second team, 6 All-Star selections)
  • Best season: 1981-82 (32.3 ppg, 85.3 FT%; All-NBA 1st team, All-Star, conference finalist)
14. Dennis Johnson (1980-1989)
  • 2 NBA titles, 4 NBA Finals appearances, 6 conference finals appearances
  • 7th in assists (4,381), 12th in steals (1,055), 5th in minutes played (27,325)
  • 1 time in top 5 of MVP voting, 1 All-NBA first team, 1 All-NBA second team, 5 All-Defensive first teams, 3 All-Defensive second teams, 4 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1979-80 (1.8 spg; All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, All-Star, 5th in MVP voting, conference finalist)
15. Charles Barkley (1985-1989)
  • 1 conference finals appearance
  • 1 time in top 5 of MVP voting, 2 All-NBA first teams, 2 All-NBA second teams, 3 All-Star selections
  • Best season: 1988-89 (25.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 57.9 FG%; All-NBA 1st team, All-Star)
 
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AA484

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More shit. Redo of the 2000s. I should also mention that I re-weigh the cats for each decade. The 2000s distribution is as follows:

47% player awards
38% peak dominance
9% sustained effectiveness as measured by stats
6% postseason success

If player played less than 400 games, their final score was adjusted accordingly. Because I'm playing around, I included player ranks for each cat in parentheses for the top 25, in the order of (playoffs, stats, peak, awards):

100 John Stockton
99 Corey Maggette
98 Antonio Daniels
97 Jamal Mashburn
96 Brent Barry
95 Jason Williams
94 Glenn Robinson
93 Jason Richardson
92 James Posey
91 Eric Snow
90 Cuttino Mobley
89 Jalen Rose
88 David West
87 Stephen Jackson
86 Latrell Sprewell
85 Clifford Robinson
84 Shane Battier
83 Hedo Türkoğlu
82 P.J. Brown
81 Allan Houston
80 Josh Howard
79 Wally Szczerbiak
78 Mehmet Okur
77 Raja Bell
76 Shareef Abdur-Rahim
75 Caron Butler
74 Vlade Divac
73 Brandon Roy
72 Robert Horry
71 Reggie Miller
70 Larry Hughes
69 Antonio McDyess
68 Richard Jefferson
67 Kenyon Martin
66 Brad Miller
65 Doug Christie
64 Jason Terry
63 Derek Fisher
62 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
61 Steve Francis
60 Andre Miller
59 Lamar Odom
58 Mike Bibby
57 Jerry Stackhouse
56 Joe Johnson
55 David Robinson
54 Antoine Walker
53 Michael Redd
52 Antawn Jamison
51 Rashard Lewis
50 Deron Williams
49 Andrei Kirilenko
48 Tayshaun Prince
47 Michael Finley
46 Eddie Jones
45 Carlos Boozer
44 Richard Hamilton
43 Manu Ginóbili
42 Stephon Marbury
41 Marcus Camby
40 Carmelo Anthony
39 Rasheed Wallace
38 Bruce Bowen
37 Baron Davis
36 Pau Gasol
35 Chris Bosh
34 Metta World Peace
33 Tony Parker
32 Grant Hill
31 Gilbert Arenas
30 Sam Cassell
29 Elton Brand
28 Dikembe Mutombo
27 Shawn Marion
26 Karl Malone
25 Ray Allen (20/11/36/23)
24 Peja Stojaković (33/26/21/29)
23 Vince Carter (36/8/28/26)
22 Yao Ming (87/46/22/17)
21 Alonzo Mourning (81/146/18/19)
20 Amar'e Stoudemire (44/47/20/21)
19 Paul Pierce (16/6/25/22)
18 Gary Payton (38/27/16/16)
17 Jermaine O'Neal (46/34/12/18)
16 Chauncey Billups (4/22/17/20)
15 Chris Paul (108/77/10/14)
14 Chris Webber (28/32/13/15)
13 Dwight Howard (39/65/14/12)
12 Ben Wallace (12/39/23/10)
11 Dwyane Wade (17/38/11/13)
10 Tracy McGrady (37/9/15/11)
9 Jason Kidd (11/13/9/8)
8 Allen Iverson (21/5/4/9)
7 Steve Nash (15/12/7/6)
6 LeBron James (18/17/3/7)
5 Dirk Nowitzki (6/3/5/5)
4 Shaquille O'Neal (2/7/1/4)
3 Kevin Garnett (19/2/2/3)
2 Kobe Bryant (1/1/6/2)
1 Tim Duncan (3/4/8/1)
 

HarleyQuinn

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Glad to see Antonio McDyess and Jamal Mashburn get some love in that re-done 90s list. I've always hated how a guy with an above-average to good career can get penalized for a guy with a great 2 year peak but retired after 3 seasons.
 

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Two guys who would be remembered way more fondly if not for injuries. Mashburn finally stayed healthy for a while with the Hornets and established himself as an All-Star, then was done basically right after due to a knee injury.

McDyess is one of the big what-if stories from his time, but even without the knee injuries, his prime is falling into probably the deepest era of elite PFs the league has ever seen. Interesting to think about what his legacy could have been
 

AA484

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Yesterday, I played around with the 75th anniversary list. I decided to use the same criteria I used above to rank those players selected to the 75th anniversary list. I only included players whose careers began after the merger. I made one exception, Jabbar, as he was the only player whose career started before that still had a "75th-worthy" career after the merger, but I only counted his achievements from 1976-77 onwards.

Now, a couple of things to note about the following:
  • The 75th list wasn't ranked in order, therefore, I could only use what criteria seemed most important for inclusion on the list, not placement. This could have more greatly influenced the order in the following list.
  • DPOY was not awarded until 1982-83 and the NBA did not include an all-league 3rd team until 1989, but I still credited recipients with these achievements while treating it as "bonus" credit for the increasingly higher competition in the league over the years. I felt the same way about the increased amount of playoff games over the years: as competition increases, so does the chance to accumulate more playoff stats to go towards their score in that area.
  • Player awards continue to be the most "translatable" metric for selection to these types of lists. They accounted for about 53% weight in the following rankings. A player's "peak dominance" counts for about 31%, sustained effectiveness via statistical output at about 9%, and postseason success at about 7%. The reason I think postseason success is lower is simply because a lot of great players didn't win titles and were still included on this (and similar) lists, while a lot of not-so-great players did win titles, but don't get anywhere near these types of lists. Guys like LeBron and Jordan still get high marks in this area, so collecting a big share of that 7% can go a long way towards separating them from their peers. Note: postseason success is measured by Finals MVPs; relative contributions to title teams, conference title teams, and conference title runners-up (in that order); and statistical output.
The following list is an ordering of those players post-merger (along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) that were selected for the 75th anniversary list, using what I perceive to be the criteria most favored by the selection committee. I also hope to do a list of "snubs" at some point, but I'm still playing around with data:

Through the 2020-21 season:

45. James Worthy
44. Reggie Miller
43. Ray Allen
42. Dennis Rodman
41. Paul Pierce
40. Robert Parish
39. Damian Lillard
38. Kevin McHale
37. Carmelo Anthony
36. Isiah Thomas
35. Anthony Davis
34. Dominique Wilkins
33. Clyde Drexler
32. John Stockton
31. George Gervin
30. Patrick Ewing
29. Kawhi Leonard
28. Scottie Pippen
27. Dwyane Wade
26. Gary Payton
25. Jason Kidd
24. Allen Iverson
23. Steve Nash
22. Julius Erving
21. Russell Westbrook
20. Giannis Antetokounmpo
19. Stephen Curry
18. Chris Paul
17. Charles Barkley
16. Dirk Nowitzki
15. James Harden
14. David Robinson
13. Moses Malone
12. Kevin Durant
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1976-77 to 1988-89 only)
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Kevin Garnett
8. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Magic Johnson
6. Karl Malone
5. Larry Bird
4. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
2. Michael Jordan
1. LeBron James

I'm sure the biggest issues would be with the placements of Malone, Harden, Paul, and Curry, but I will add that Curry has some years of top-level play left, while Paul and Harden seem to be winding theirs down. Malone's ranking is inflated by his absurd quality of play for nearly two decades, so while he never achieved the postseason success that others in the top 10 did (all were multiple title winners aside from Garnett), he still had a superb career (albeit tainted by real-life scumbaggery which I did not cite as a metric for this list).
 

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Post-Merger Starting Five (a.k.a., the "Unbeatable Lineup")
PF: Tim Duncan
SF: LeBron James
C: Shaquille O'Neal
SG: Michael Jordan
PG: Magic Johnson

Positional rankings

Power Forward

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Charles Barkley

Small Forward
1. LeBron James
2. Larry Bird
3. Kevin Durant
4. Julius Erving
5. Scottie Pippen

Center
1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1976-77 to 1988-89 only)
4. Moses Malone
5. David Robinson

Shooting Guard
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. James Harden
4. Allen Iverson
5. Dwyane Wade

Point Guard
1. Magic Johnson
2. Chris Paul
3. Stephen Curry
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Steve Nash
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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I will never not be pissed about Dennis Johnson not being inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame until 2010. He's arguably a first ballot HOFer. Fact he had to wait twenty years (and his family had to wait three years after he died) is an outrage!
 

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I know you're using a formula but I can't see Harden that high and not shake my head. Paul to a lesser extent as well.
I'll break them both down, just so we can both take a look at it. Sort of a "behind the scenes" look:
  • Harden was 25th out of 45 on postseason success. He had one Finals appearance and four conference finals appearances.
  • Paul was was 29th out of 45 on postseason success. He had one Finals appearance and two conference finals appearances.
  • Harden was 31st out of 45 on statistical effectiveness. Paul was 13th.
  • Harden had the following accomplishments credited:
    • 2017-18 MVP; three-time runner-up; two other top 5's in voting
    • 6 All-NBA first teams; 1 3rd team
    • 10 All-Star selections
  • Paul had the following accomplishments credited:
    • 2007-08 runner-up in MVP; four other top 5's in voting
    • 4 All-NBA first teams, 5 second teams, 1 third team (2021-22 was not counted)
    • 7 All-Defensive first teams, 2 second teams
    • 12 All-Star selections
I do have another list where the cats are all "equal," similar to z-scores but without negative scoring (zero being the lowest). Harden finished 17th on that list and Paul 18th. Curry finished 19th. If Curry wins a title and gets Finals MVP, he probably gets bumped ahead. He is still in his prime (I believe), while Paul and Harden are not.

It's funny that both of us probably believe Curry is (and will be remembered as) the better player, but a look "on paper" doesn't really make the gap that large. I will say that Curry's influence on the game probably accounts for a lot of his recognition, and that's not something that can be measured.
 

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Breaking down the playoff rankings:

Base score via accumulated stats (including credits for Finals MVP):

1 LeBron James
2 Michael Jordan
3 Tim Duncan
4 Magic Johnson
5 Shaquille O'Neal
6 Kobe Bryant
7 Larry Bird
8 Kevin Durant
9 Karl Malone
10 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11 Hakeem Olajuwon
12 Dwyane Wade
13 Scottie Pippen
14 Dirk Nowitzki
15 Kawhi Leonard
16 John Stockton
17 Kevin McHale
18 Charles Barkley
19 Julius Erving
20 Clyde Drexler
21 James Harden
22 James Worthy
23 Chris Paul
24 Robert Parish
25 Paul Pierce
26 Stephen Curry
27 Kevin Garnett
28 Reggie Miller
29 Patrick Ewing
30 Jason Kidd
31 Russell Westbrook
32 Isiah Thomas
33 Ray Allen
34 David Robinson
35 Moses Malone
36 Steve Nash
37 Gary Payton
38 Giannis Antetokounmpo
39 Allen Iverson
40 Carmelo Anthony
41 Dennis Rodman
42 Damian Lillard
43 George Gervin
44 Dominique Wilkins
45 Anthony Davis

"Advancement" bonus:

1 LeBron James
2 Scottie Pippen (Pippen shared Jordan's advancement bonuses with the Bulls, but a lot of people forget that Pippen went back to the conference finals as an old dawg with the Blazers in 2000 -- and still put up good numbers)
3 Magic Johnson
4 Michael Jordan
5 Kobe Bryant
6 Tim Duncan
7 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8 Shaquille O'Neal
9 Larry Bird
10 Dennis Rodman
11 James Worthy
12 Dwyane Wade
13 Robert Parish
14 Kevin McHale
15 Stephen Curry
16 Kevin Durant
17 Hakeem Olajuwon
18 Isiah Thomas
19 Ray Allen
20 Kawhi Leonard
21 Julius Erving
22 Clyde Drexler
23 David Robinson
24 Moses Malone
25 Karl Malone (highest player without a title but he made it to two Finals and six conference finals in his career)
26 Paul Pierce
27 Jason Kidd
28 Kevin Garnett
29 Dirk Nowitzki
30 Gary Payton
31 Reggie Miller
32 John Stockton
33 Russell Westbrook
34 Giannis Antetokounmpo
35 Patrick Ewing
36 Anthony Davis (lowest player with a ring but that's pretty much all he has done in the postseason)
37 James Harden
38 Charles Barkley
39 Steve Nash
40 George Gervin
41 Chris Paul
42 Allen Iverson
43 Damian Lillard
44 Carmelo Anthony
45 Dominique Wilkins (only player without at least a conf. finals appearance)
 

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I've tweaked it a bit more, but here are the 2010s:

1 LeBron James
2 Kevin Durant
3 James Harden
4 Stephen Curry
5 Russell Westbrook
6 Dwight Howard
7 Kawhi Leonard
8 Chris Paul
9 Giannis Antetokounmpo
10 Dwyane Wade
11 Kobe Bryant
12 Derrick Rose
13 Paul George
14 Draymond Green
15 Anthony Davis
16 Blake Griffin
17 LaMarcus Aldridge
18 Damian Lillard
19 Marc Gasol
20 Carmelo Anthony
21 Dirk Nowitzki
22 Tony Parker
23 Klay Thompson
24 Tim Duncan
25 Kevin Love
26 Pau Gasol
27 Kyrie Irving
28 Joakim Noah
29 Al Horford
30 DeMar DeRozan
31 Kyle Lowry
32 DeAndre Jordan
33 Andre Iguodala
34 Serge Ibaka
35 Rajon Rondo
36 Paul Millsap
37 Chris Bosh
38 John Wall
39 Deron Williams
40 Jimmy Butler
41 Rudy Gobert
42 Nikola Jokić
43 DeMarcus Cousins
44 Isaiah Thomas
45 Manu Ginóbili
46 Joe Johnson
47 Zach Randolph
48 Mike Conley
49 Paul Pierce
50 George Hill
51 Brook Lopez
52 Joel Embiid
53 Amar'e Stoudemire
54 Jeff Teague
55 David West
56 Kemba Walker
57 Andrew Bynum
58 Jrue Holiday
59 Goran Dragić
60 Tyson Chandler
61 Steve Nash
62 Bradley Beal
63 Andre Drummond
64 Al Jefferson
65 J.R. Smith
66 Danny Green
67 Kevin Garnett
68 Trevor Ariza
69 J.J. Redick
70 Tristan Thompson
71 Thaddeus Young
72 Luol Deng
73 Lou Williams
74 Jamal Crawford
75 Josh Smith

Playoffs Top 15:

1 LeBron James
2 Kevin Durant
3 Stephen Curry
4 Kawhi Leonard
5 Draymond Green
6 Dwyane Wade
7 Klay Thompson
8 James Harden
9 Russell Westbrook
10 Andre Iguodala
11 Chris Paul
12 Tim Duncan
13 Al Horford
14 Tony Parker
15 Serge Ibaka

Stats Top 15:

1 LeBron James
2 Kevin Durant
3 James Harden
4 Russell Westbrook
5 Stephen Curry
6 Chris Paul
7 LaMarcus Aldridge
8 Blake Griffin
9 DeMar DeRozan
10 Dwyane Wade
11 Carmelo Anthony
12 Dwight Howard
13 Anthony Davis
14 Damian Lillard
15 Marc Gasol

Peak Top 15:

1 Stephen Curry
2 LeBron James
3 Kevin Durant
4 Derrick Rose
5 James Harden
6 Giannis Antetokounmpo
7 Russell Westbrook
8 Dwight Howard
9 Kawhi Leonard
10 Kobe Bryant
11 Anthony Davis
12 Carmelo Anthony
13 Chris Paul
14 Joakim Noah
15 Paul George


Accolades Top 15:

1 LeBron James
2 Kevin Durant
3 Dwight Howard
4 James Harden
5 Russell Westbrook
6 Chris Paul
7 Stephen Curry
8 Kobe Bryant
9 Kawhi Leonard
10 Anthony Davis
11 Paul George
12 Giannis Antetokounmpo
13 Blake Griffin
14 Dwyane Wade
15 Carmelo Anthony
 

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Playing around with "peak" measurements. Basically the best combination of (regular season) win shares and award shares from a player's single season. Too much data is missing from the merger through the 80s, but I can do a good 90s list:

25. Tom Chambers (1989-90)
24. Glen Rice (1996-97)
23. Shawn Kemp (1995-96)
22. Allen Iverson (1998-99)
21. Mark Price (1992-93)
20. Jason Kidd (1998-99)
19. Alonzo Mourning (1998-99)
18. Dominique Wilkins (1992-93)
17. Tim Duncan (1998-99)
16. Chris Mullin (1991-92)
15. Tim Hardaway (1996-97)
14. Patrick Ewing (1989-90)
13. Scottie Pippen (1995-96)
12. John Stockton (1994-95)
11. Gary Payton (1997-98)
10. Grant Hill (1996-97)
9. Anfernee Hardaway (1995-96)
8. Clyde Drexler (1991-92)
7. Shaquille O'Neal (1994-95)
6. Magic Johnson (1989-90)
5. Charles Barkley (1992-93)
4. Hakeem Olajuwon (1993-94)
3. Karl Malone (1996-97)
2. David Robinson (1994-95)
1. Michael Jordan (1995-96)
 

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I know people today kind of forget thanks to the emergence of guys like Kobe, Paul Pierce, AI, Garnett, etc. in the late 90s but for a 3-4 year window there, Glen Rice was widely thought of as being the next generational NBA superstar as the older stars were really getting up there in age. Rice could not only score 30+ in any given night but he could shoot the 3, great FT shooter, and was just such a pure scorer.
 

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Ehh, there is enough data to a fairly accurate 80s "peak" list, so here you go:

25. Alex English (1982-83)
24. Marques Johnson (1980-81)
23. Robert Parish (1981-82)
22. Clyde Drexler (1987-88)
21. Terry Cummings (1984-85)
20. Adrian Dantley (1983-84)
19. Paul Westphal (1979-80)
18. Patrick Ewing (1988-89)
17. Gus Williams (1981-82)
16. Isiah Thomas (1984-85)
15. John Stockton (1988-89)
14. George Gervin (1981-82)
13. Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
12. Hakeem Olajuwon (1988-89)
11. Kevin McHale (1986-87)
10. Dominique Wilkins (1985-86)
9. Bernard King (1983-84)
8. Charles Barkley (1988-89)
7. Karl Malone (1988-89)
6. Julius Erving (1980-81)
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1979-80)
4. Moses Malone (1982-83)
3. Magic Johnson (1986-87)
2. Larry Bird (1985-86)
1. Michael Jordan (1987-88)

You can really tell the next breed of superstars by how many guys have 1988 or '89 as their peak year of the decade.
 

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Jordan actually had better counting numbers across the board in 89 aside from scoring and blocks, even showing a huge jump (almost 15%) in 3-point percentage. Perhaps the difference was the Bulls were 3rd in the East in 88 compared to 6th in 89
 

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Jordan actually had better counting numbers across the board in 89 aside from scoring and blocks, even showing a huge jump (almost 15%) in 3-point percentage. Perhaps the difference was the Bulls were 3rd in the East in 88 compared to 6th in 89

Yeah, Jordan's 80s peak was 1988 because he had his most win shares of the decade that year (a ridiculous 21.2) and also won MVP. Win shares and award shares were my two metrics for the peak rankings.
 

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2000s "Peak" (Player's single best combination of Win Shares/Award Shares in decade)

25. Yao Ming (2008-09)
24. Shawn Marion (2005-06)
23. Sam Cassell (2003-04)
22. Elton Brand (2005-06)
21. Peja Stojaković (2003-04)
20. Amar'e Stoudemire (2007-08)
19. Jermaine O'Neal (2003-04)
18. Alonzo Mourning (1999-00)
17. Karl Malone (1999-00)
16. Chris Webber (2000-01)
15. Gary Payton (1999-00)
14. Chauncey Billups (2005-06)
13. Dwight Howard (2008-09)
12. Tracy McGrady (2002-03)
11. Jason Kidd (2001-02)
10. Dwyane Wade (2008-09)
9. Steve Nash (2006-07)
8. Allen Iverson (2000-01)
7. Kobe Bryant (2007-08)
6. Chris Paul (2007-08)
5. Tim Duncan (2001-02)
4. Dirk Nowitzki (2006-07)
3. Kevin Garnett (2003-04)
2. Shaquille O'Neal (1999-00)
1. LeBron James (2008-09)
 

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I really think Peja gets underrated in the influence on guys who were 6'8+ being able to not only shoot 3 pointers but make them at 40%+ that were usually only seen with shorter SGs or SFs. Peja was listed at 6'10" despite playing SF and I feel like guys like Dirk tend to get more "credit" when it comes to big men who can shoot/make 3 pointers and spread the court.
 

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And finally, the 2010s:

25. Pau Gasol (2010-11)
24. Joel Embiid (2018-19)
23. Marc Gasol (2014-15)
22. Draymond Green (2015-16)
21. Dirk Nowitzki (2010-11)
20. Carmelo Anthony (2012-13)
19. Rudy Gobert (2016-17)
18. Nikola Jokić (2018-19)
17. Joakim Noah (2013-14)
16. Paul George (2018-19)
15. Blake Griffin (2013-14)
14. Damian Lillard (2017-18)
13. Dwyane Wade (2009-10)
12. Kobe Bryant (2009-10)
11. Chris Paul (2012-13)
10. Anthony Davis (2017-18)
9. Kawhi Leonard (2016-17)
8. Dwight Howard (2010-11)
7. Russell Westbrook (2016-17)
6. Derrick Rose (2010-11)
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo (2018-19)
4. James Harden (2017-18)
3. Stephen Curry (2015-16)
2. Kevin Durant (2013-14)
1. LeBron James (2012-13)
 

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And just for the hell of it, three years into 2020s (not gonna list the years, though):

25. Kyrie Irving
24. Paul George
23. Khris Middleton
22. Pascal Siakam
21. Trae Young
20. Jimmy Butler
19. DeMar DeRozan
18. Rudy Gobert
17. Karl-Anthony Towns
16. Julius Randle
15. Ja Morant
14. Kevin Durant
13. Chris Paul
12. Kawhi Leonard
11. Devin Booker
10. Luka Dončić
9. Jayson Tatum
8. Damian Lillard
7. Anthony Davis
6. Stephen Curry
5. James Harden
4. LeBron James
3. Joel Embiid
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
1. Nikola Jokić
 
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