The Death Penalty

[cobainwasmurdered]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/30/us/oklahoma-executions.html

What was supposed to be the first of two executions here on Tuesday night was halted when the prisoner, Clayton D. Lockett, began to writhe and gasp after he had already been declared unconscious and called out “oh, man,” according to witnesses.

The administering doctor intervened and discovered that “the line had blown,” said the director of corrections, Robert Patton, meaning that drugs were no longer flowing into Mr. Lockett’s vein.

At 7:06 p.m., Mr. Patton said, Mr. Lockett died in the execution chamber, of a heart attack.

Mr. Lockett’s apparent revival and writhing raised questions about the doctor’s initial declaration that he was unconscious and are sure to cast doubt on the effectiveness of the sedative used.

Europe has recently banned the sell of the lethal injection drugs to the US because of the death penalty which has led to the states with the death penalty freaking out and drama like this:

The appeals for disclosure about the drug sources, supported by a state court in March, threw Oklahoma’s highest courts and elected officials into weeks of conflict and disarray, with courts arguing over which should consider the request for a politically unpopular stay of execution, the governor defying the State Supreme Court’s ruling for a delay, and a legislator seeking impeachment of the justices.

The planned executions of Mr. Lockett, 38, and Mr. Warner, 46, dramatized the growing tension nationally over secrecy in lethal injections as drug companies, saying they are fearful of political and even physical attack, refuse to supply drugs, and many states scramble to find new sources and try untested combinations. Several states have imposed secrecy on the suppliers of lethal injection drugs, leading to court battles over due process and the ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

So with all of that how does TSM feel about the death penalty currently? We've talked about it many times over the years and it's gone back and forth. A lot of fairly liberal people believe in the death penalty in certain cases so it might not be as one sided as these threads usually are.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

As you can probably tell, I'm against the death penalty.

 

[KOAB]

Inmate whose execution was botched has died.

Wow what a fuck up. I can't believe they tried to kill him and he died. Who the fuck let that happen.

And with that joke out of the way my feelings on the death penalty go on a case by case basis. Let's see... yup I'm fine with the death penalty in this case.

 

[SFH]

In theory I support capital punishment. Mostly knee jerk reactions to emotionally angering crimes. But when I've had time to settle down and be rational, I also get more "case by case"in my feelings. I had a hardcore conservative in one of my political science classes do a paper on capital punishment and she was stunned by her research. She told me it's cheaper to just convict them for life than to spend the money on appeals. This was in 2001/2002 though so things may have changed and I did not do my own research.

My feelings are mostly as Joe Q. Citizen, not as a research fanatic.

 

[Mickey Massuco]

Always against it. State-sanctioned executions of citizens who are locked up and under control is murder.

 

[Edwin]

Always against it. State-sanctioned executions of citizens who are locked up and under control is murder.

The realest talk.

 

[tekcop]

I don't understand the point of execution. They're already locked up. What's to gain from killing them after that?

For those who support the death penalty, what an acceptable margin of error for wrong convictions? Even if those convicted of murder were actually guilty 99.9% of the time, that's still way too low for me. I can't agree to a case-by-case basis argument, because allowing the government to kill prisoners for any reason ensures the execution of innocents just due to how cumbersome and unorganized any system as large as the U.S. penal system must be.

 

[vivisectvi]

I don't understand the point of execution. They're already locked up. What's to gain from killing them after that?

One less mouth to feed? 8)

Seriously though, I do believe that it is in no way a deterrent for criminals.

 

[Precious Roy]

Some people are human excrement who don't deserve to live. People who kidnap, molest and kill kids.....can anyone tell me they aren't better off dead? I don't see the point in locking up and trying to rehabilitate someone like that, and they'd have to be kept in solitary confinement just to keep other inmates from killing them. If there is overwhelming evidence and a jury of their peers agrees.....fry their ass

there are some cases where the death penalty is totally warranted. I don't flippantly say that. I don't think it should be wielded like Texas for example, but it shouldn't be completely off the table

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Yep. It's not a deterrent, there is no margin of error in cases that is acceptable, every method they've used has ended up being flawed and resulting in horrific deaths, and the entire idea of the state executing citizens is just a whole "no" to me.

 

[2GOLD]

All forms of our prison system are broken.To say leaving someone in a cell for 50 plus years is less barbaric than execution equally makes zero sense to me. Both are horrible forms of punishment and prison can be equal to state and citizen approved psychological and emotional torture. Over the years, I've accepted both are incredibly fucked up and neither is more humane than the other.

I think we are just kidding ourselves and trying to pretend either is the moral high ground on a mountain of shit.

Best we can say is at least with the torture, we can let out ones judges and attorneys fucked over for approval ratings, racism, money and election campaigns.

 

[tekcop]

That makes no sense, 2Gold. Being locked up for something you didn't do may be unimaginably horrible, but it doesn't compare to having your life literally ended.

 

[2GOLD]

That makes no sense, 2Gold. Being locked up for something you didn't do may be unimaginably horrible, but it doesn't compare to having your life literally ended.

People get the shit beat out of them, raped, tortured and isolated. And as I said, I am not in favor of execution but I don't pretend one is better than the other. Our system is a broken torture factor where justice doesn't exist if an agenda is more important. Being kept alive and brutalized for years isn't better than death, it is just a different form.

 

[CanadianGuitarist]

As I don't believe in any kind of afterlife, I'm not sure how execution serves altogether as punishment. The criminal is dead. Were I to want "an eye for an eye"-type justice, wouldn't seeing him or her locked up be more satisfying to me? I think so.

I think what often gets overlooked, and I'll admit to saying this as someone who's pretty liberal when it comes to crime and punishment, is the aim of sentencing is to rehabilitate, so, ideally prisoners can eventually become productive members of society. The comparison I'll use is punishing a child by sending him/her to their room. When my parents did that to me growing up, it wasn't because they wanted me to suffer, it was so I'd think twice before acting up again. I'll say we're probably too focused on therapy (there should be a better balance of both therapy AND sentencing).

One argument in favour of the death penalty is "Well, if it was your relative who was murdered, you'd want the death penalty". Yeah, that's probably true. But that's not reason - that's emotion; the very thing upon which laws should not be based.

I've really come around on this debate. I'd say as recently as two or three years ago, I was staunchly in favour of capital punishment.

 

[KOAB]

All I've noticed about this debate so far is that it's really hard to find someone who is both for abortion and the death penalty.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

Some people are human excrement who don't deserve to live. People who kidnap, molest and kill kids.....can anyone tell me they aren't better off dead? I don't see the point in locking up and trying to rehabilitate someone like that, and they'd have to be kept in solitary confinement just to keep other inmates from killing them. If there is overwhelming evidence and a jury of their peers agrees.....fry their ass

there are some cases where the death penalty is totally warranted. I don't flippantly say that. I don't think it should be wielded like Texas for example, but it shouldn't be completely off the table

This.

 

[CanadianGuitarist]

All I've noticed about this debate so far is that it's really hard to find someone who is both for abortion and the death penalty.

From a book I own, a satirical look at Canadian life:

"Wait, conservatives support the death penalty but oppose abortion?"
"Yes."
"What are they, a bunch of idiots?"
"Yes."

"Wait, liberals oppose the death penalty but support abortion?"
"Yes."
"What are they, a bunch of idiots?"
"Yes."

 

[Fall of Epic]

I'm against it in the sense that I think there are punishments worse than death. I know it's not really feasible but I've always felt that giving someone life imprisonment was a lot worse than just killing them. If a person commits a crime worthy of the death penalty, chances are they know what's coming. Why not just let him live with what he did for the rest of his life in solitary confinement?

On the other hand, it sometimes takes several decades for people to be executed so you can probably say it's the same thing. If you sentence someone to death, fucking kill them! Waiting for exoneration?

 

[CanadianGuitarist]

On the other hand, it sometimes takes several decades for people to be executed so you can probably say it's the same thing. If you sentence someone to death, fucking kill them! Waiting for exoneration?

My mother and I were just disussing that yesterday. If I'm not mistaken, a doctor needs to administer the injection, which violates the Hippocratic Oath.

 

[KOAB]

The methods of execution that are supposed to be humane can easily be botched since it's usually people with no idea doing this. Simply put... go quick and painless bullet to the back off the head would be more efficient and no worries about "how cruel and inhumane".

Also... considering what crime this man committed in the first post of this thread I wouldn't be surprised if it were botched on purpose.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Being locked up for life is better than the death penalty as far as justice because if you later find out they are innocent they can be set free and some form of restitution made to them. It will never be enough but it is something. Dead is dead.

As far as the people who support the death penalty. What do you consider overwhelming evidence? And how do you feel about cases where we've found out people have been wrongfully executed?

 

[Edwin]

All I've noticed about this debate so far is that it's really hard to find someone who is both for abortion and the death penalty.

Death penalty doesn't help you get it in.

 

[Precious Roy]

As far as the people who support the death penalty. What do you consider overwhelming evidence? And how do you feel about cases where we've found out people have been wrongfully executed?

Overwhelming evidence to me means no shadow of a doubt and the crimes need to be of a particularly monstrous nature

There's been way too many wrongfully executed due to being railroaded by the justice system, or given the death sentence when the punishment outweighs the particular crime. If I was a prosecutor, judge or member of a jury I would not take the death penalty lightly.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Would DNA evidence be a must? After all they aren't supposed to be convicted in the first place if there's a shadow of a doubt. But like you said there are so many ways to go wrong. Accidents are bad enough but deliberate acts by one side or the other is even worse and can make even a seemingly solid case fall apart down the road. That's one of the big reasons I'll never support it.

Maybe if we get a Professor Xavier who can read minds and literally show us the guy did it I'd consider that perfect proof but that would open up even more ethical questions...and is also science fiction.

 

[Smues]

I'm pro death penalty and pro abortion. It's always amused me how people tend to me pro one and anti the other. Don't get me wrong I get the reasoning, I just find it amusing.

I do believe there are crimes heinous enough that cause you to lose the right to live. The proper system for this Is another matter, but I certainly am pro death penalty in thoery.

Abortion: way too many fucking people on this planet already, and way too many unwanted kids. I don't get the point In forcing someone to have a kid they can't afford afford and probably don't want, and that society sure as fuck doesn't want to support. The people who are hard core anti abortion but then bitch about welfare programs and the lazy bums who shouldn't have kids they can't support drive me crazy. Abortions for all, miniature American flags for no one.

 

[CanadianGuitarist]

The people who are hard core anti abortion but then bitch about welfare programs and the lazy bums who shouldn't have kids they can't support drive me crazy. Abortions for all, miniature American flags for no one.

I never quite got that reasoning either.
"What!? How dare you even consider having an abortion!"
"What!? You want food stamps because you can't put food on the table!? Should have thought of that before you had a kid!"

 

[AA484]

I think the reasoning behind it is that they should have been responsible enough in the first place to not have an unplanned child. Of course most people think that until it happens to them...

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

And the most common occurrence of that case was during the wholesome '50s, but that also gets brushed under the rug.

 

[AA484]

Well, they also had forced sterilization for "promiscuous" women, too, so yeah.

 

[Brooklyn Zoo]

You guys hear about the guy who killed an 8 year old because he was defending his sister from getting raped? That guy should probably die.