Who Killed WCW? A four part series on Vice

[BUTT]

"The money is in the chase" is old territory logic, if there was a strong world champ like Harley Race, and one of your three-time-a-year NBA arena shows was built around the top babyface getting a shot that he's definitely going to lose because he's not getting the NWA title. And there's definitely money in the match where the top babyface star wins the big one. But overall, is it the right move to have a heel carry the belt most of the time? Those examples Laz pointed out would indicate no. Of course this is all dependent on which talent a promotion has. If it's JCP in the 80s, yes I would say Flair is the best bet to carry the belt most of the time. But Lex never beat Ric for the belt because there was "money in the chase." In '88 and '89, was there?

Of course Nash's specific comments were about Goldberg and whether or not he had to lose the title. Well, within a month span they did three stadium Nitros, drawing from 29k (during a blizzard in St. Louis) to 38k for the Georgia Dome. Meltzer once said that all the local promotion for these events was built around Goldberg. The Goldberg-Nash Starrcade was the biggest non-Hogan buyrate they ever did. Nash always says Goldberg ruined the plans post-fingerpoke because "he put his arm through a car window." But that was a year later, after the next nWo reformation. Nash may be legitimately confused, but all his defenses of his booking are based on fallacious reasoning. And also, we have the ratings, attendance and buyrates. You don't have to speculate on whether Hogan and Nash's grand plan to save WCW would have worked. They tried it and it didn't!

 

[AA484]

I think it leans face with your top draw, at least as far as the big 80s territories were concerned:

WWF: Hogan (face)
Crockett: Flair (heel)
AWA: Bockwinkel (heel)
Texas: Von Erichs (face)
Mid-South: JYD (face) or DiBiase (face/heel)
Memphis: Lawler (face)
Florida: Dusty (face)
Georgia: Tommy Rich (face)
Portland: Buddy Rose (heel)

 

[strummer]

Also when you're trying to draw in kids like wwf was in the 80s (and in the PG era I guess) you pretty much have to have a superhero face on top. Kids give up on stuff easy when their favorites don't win and Vince knew that. Crockett wasn't reallly trying to draw in kids so their audience was more accepting of heels on top. Yes I realize that caught up with them in 87/88 when their fan base seemed to realize their favorites were never going to win the big one. But still Flair was cheered over Dusty in a bunch of Crockett markets by the snarky 18-34 year olds.

Basically you can have a successful chase storyline but it's been tough the last 40 years when everything went national and the shift was to appeal to kids for the most part

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Are you trying to say that Austin drew more money between Rumble '98 and WM14 than he did between WM14 and Judgment Day '98?

The WWF philosophy was "build a top face, have them stay on top for long stretches, and then build a heel up for another face to take over." The big exceptions, if even, have been HHH and Roman; HHH is iffy because he spent more of 2000 without the title than with and his Reign of Terra lead to a drop in business.

Regardless, the idea of "the money is in the chase" was a JCP/NWA thing, and that those companies all floundered once the national expansion took hold proves it wrong.

I'm not saying Austin drew more money during the chase (maybe he did though considering it was Rumble & WM, 2 of the bigger WWF PPVs?) but I do think the chase itself helped propel Austin to draw more money after he won the WWF Title if that makes sense, especially after he transitioned right into the Vince stuff more directly with the Raws after helped by the storyline that since Austin finally won the Title, Vince's only goal was to get the belt off him.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Nash always says Goldberg ruined the plans post-fingerpoke because "he put his arm through a car window." But that was a year later, after the next nWo reformation. Nash may be legitimately confused, but all his defenses of his booking are based on fallacious reasoning. And also, we have the ratings, attendance and buyrates. You don't have to speculate on whether Hogan and Nash's grand plan to save WCW would have worked. They tried it and it didn't!

Tbf to Big Kev, Goldberg was dipping in and out of the company in the spring and summer of ‘99 but it wasn’t due to injury. IIRC, it was filming that stupid Universal Soldier sequel.

And I mean, they did have Goldberg get revenge on Nash but it didn’t even main event the PPV it was on.

Really the only time WCW properly utilized Goldberg as a top guy was the night he won the WCW World Championship. I think he only had one PPV main event during his first World Title run and although it was one of his best matches, it was an afterthought to Hogan-Warrior II (and cut off to like a quarter of the PPV buyers).

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

I'm not saying Austin drew more money during the chase (maybe he did though considering it was Rumble & WM, 2 of the bigger WWF PPVs?) but I do think the chase itself helped propel Austin to draw more money after he won the WWF Title if that makes sense, especially after he transitioned right into the Vince stuff more directly with the Raws after helped by the storyline that since Austin finally won the Title, Vince's only goal was to get the belt off him.

That's not the argument, though. The chase brings money when the face is hot, sure, but the JCP/NWA philosophy echoed by Nash was that the chase is what drew the money and not the reign. Vince proved that wrong three times over after taking NY international, and he just used his father's model of having a strong face on top and feeding them heels.

Austin's chase made the run possible, but the run is what took the company from potential bankruptcy to where it is today.

...which doesn't really make me re-think taking the belt off Goldberg, but I still think it should've been DDP to do it (since Bill trusted him enough to let him lead during the planning), and then have Goldberg destroy the remaining nWo one by one.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

For all of his faults in WCW Creative, Russo did seem to recognize that Goldberg and Bret Hart were the two guys that WCW should be building around not Baldo Renaldo or Big Kev.

Unfortunately, it was too little, too late. And Goldberg concussed Bret then tore his own arm up.

 

[alkeiper]

Bob Backlund in his book summed up the babyface champion logic pretty well. It's easier to heat up a series of heel challengers than it is babyface challengers. They could heat up a heel in a couple weeks but it would take months to get a babyface over.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

Bob Backlund in his book summed up the babyface champion logic pretty well. It's easier to heat up a series of heel challengers than it is babyface challengers. They could heat up a heel in a couple weeks but it would take months to get a babyface over.

Exactly. And, as we saw from 1998-2001, it's just as easy to have a heel take the belt off the face and then have the face get it back within a month or two. 2000 WWF worked so well because there were 3-5 believable top guys at any point, which is my personal preference for a booking plan (ensemble cast vs. star vehicle), but that's more of an anomaly than anything else. We still needed Austin's monumental 1998-1999 run to get to a point where the belt could hang between Hunter, Rock, and Angle (with Foley, Taker, Kane, Jericho, and Big Show on the border).

Historical perspective aside, "the money is in the chase" worked when the business was all about the touring circuit and big arena shows. It's easier to default to the big bad villain champion when the big bad villain champion only came around once a month, if that, and you'd spend 3 1/2 weeks building up the babyface challenger.

 

[BUTT]

Jamie Kellner, TV Maverick Who Launched Both Fox and The WB, Dies at 77

Jamie Kellner, who made his name as the only exec ever to create two broadcast networks — Fox and The WB — died Friday in Montecito, Calif. He was 77.

variety.com

Strange timing

 

[Tino Standard]

In Soviet Russia, WCW kills YOU.

 

[BUTT]

I doubt the series will address this (from what I've seen it barely addresses anything!) but Kellner said in Guy Evans' book that Fusient wanted to control the Nitro time slot even if Turner cancelled wrestling. Basically their deal would have given them a five-year time buy on TBS (they were going to move Nitro since TNT was going higher-brow). And Monday nights at 8 is some pretty valuable real estate. I can't really blame Jamie for wanting no part of that deal.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

The truth about Jamie Kellner canceling WCW

Because now is as good a time as any to write about this...

open.substack.com

The crack detective team of Bixenspan and Zellner are on the case. Apparently, a presumably bitter, outgoing Turner executive helped put that provision in the contract to sabotage Jamie Kellner.

 

[snuffbox]

I watched some of this tonight. I believe Russo more than Goldberg but Goldberg was one of the more clumsy, dangerous wrestlers of all time. Bischoff gets less credible every time a new documentary or whatever comes out.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

I watched some of this tonight. I believe Russo more than Goldberg but Goldberg was one of the more clumsy, dangerous wrestlers of all time. Bischoff gets less credible every time a new documentary or whatever comes out.

The crazy thing about Russo is that his story hasn't changed all that much. He's been forthright in why he left the WWF (doubled workload for no extra pay), why WCW hired him (his success with the WWF), why he booked/wrote how he did (competing against Jerry Springer and similar shows), and what his goal was (boost the TV ratings).

It's just he's such an egregious piece of shit at what he's supposedly focused on that it's easy as hell to hate him.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Russo has rocks for brains some/a lot of the time and I hate most of his creative output for the past 25 years. However, I don’t see him as a dishonest person like Bischoff, Nash, and Goldberg.