The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: Semifinals! OG/VX & Fokai/MFer

[Next USC #55]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

Brooklyn Zoo asked me to fill in for him this round, as he's out somewhere.

Vitamin X
1 DE Reggie White
2 LB Ray Nitschke
3 QB John Elway
4 RB Marshall Faulk
5 C Mike Webster
6 WR-KR/PR Tim Brown
7 S Rodney Harrison
8 WR Isaac Bruce
9 DT Cortez Kennedy
10 WR Paul Warfield
11 T Joe Jacoby
12 S LeRoy Butler
13 LB Randy Gradishar
14 G Russ Grimm
15 LB/DE Leslie O'Neal
16 FB Larry Centers
17 S Dick Anderson
18 G Guy McIntyre
19 Coach Bill Walsh
20 T Matt Light
21 DL Richard Seymour
22 DE TOO TALL
23 K Matt Stover
24 TE Mark Bavaro
25 CB Patrick Surtain
26 CB Sam Madison

Brooklyn Zoo
1 RB Jim Brown
2 QB Dan Marino
3 DT Alan Page
4 LB Chuck Bednarik
5 WR Marvin Harrison
6 OL Roosevelt Brown
7 CB Mike Haynes
8 LB Sam Huff
9 WR James Lofton
10 S Jack Christiansen
11 LB Chris Hanburger
12 TE Antonio Gates
13 G Billy Shaw
14 T Ron Mix
15 DE LC Greenwood
16 WR Don Maynard
17 DE Fred Dean
18 Coach Tom Landry
19 FB Darryl Johnston
20 DT Henry Jordan
21 S Deron Cherry
22 DT Joe Klecko
23 OG Bill Fralic
24 CB Everson Walls
25 K Rob Bironas
26 P Sean Landeta

This is a tough matchup for either team.

Offense: Obviously Jim Brown is the guy in play here. VX's defense seems to be built to stop the passing game moreso than the run, so Brown will get a fair amount of carries here. His career ypc of 5.2 will be of significant benefit here, as I don't see that defense doing anything to stop that. The passing game will be a controlled type, as Dan Marino is a smart quarterback who can throw it anywhere on the field, and he'll be asked to keep passing routes short and to the sides, where Harrison and Lofton can excel. Maynard will catch the middle routes as well as Antonio Gates. Daryl Johnston would block for Jim Brown and Dan Marino, occasionally getting a few FB dump passes to keep the defense honest. The offensive line in front can neutralize the pass rushers of VX's defense because it's all fat fucks here, which guys like Seymour has shown an inability to get around. Basically the best offensive scheme here to use is the West Coast offense, which can offset any defensive advantages VX might have.

Defense: VX ain't gonna pull a 2000 Rams on this defense. The speed he has will be offset by Landry's Doomsday Defense, which Zoo has done a good job of assembling good personnel for. VX's only hope is a deep vertical passing game, which John Elway isn't known to be able to sustain for long stretches of time. The defense has a fair amount of heavy hitters to rattle his small receivers, and they WILL be rattled. His offensive line is good but the defense will be able to get through and sack Elway 3-5 times in the game, which is all that is needed. VX has no running game to speak of, because Marshall Faulk isn't a strong runner, and will be taken down easily by those guys.

Special Teams: Rob Bironas will kick from 45+ if needed to be, and he will convert most of them. Sean Landeta will do a good job of keeping Tim Brown's returns to a minimal with precise booting. VX has Matt Stover to do the field goals, which is okay, but he has no punters. This will mean a lot of short field opportunities for this team, and it can be exploited.

BZ 31, VX 14 is my estimated score.

 

[Vitamin X]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

Porter's analysis up there is terrible. Way too many inaccuracies and fallacies in his argument. My defense is built to stop both things, and saying Elway can't keep up the deep pass when the guy was known for having a cannon for an arm is laughable. Let's put this into some more perspective.

I'm glad I got one of the two worst teams that I noted last round as being in a matchup for being tremendously f'd up since the gameplanning is just that much easier for me as a result.

BZ on Offense:
1 RB Jim Brown
2 QB Dan Marino
5 WR Marvin Harrison
6 OL Roosevelt Brown
9 WR James Lofton
12 TE Antonio Gates
13 G Billy Shaw
14 T Ron Mix
16 WR Don Maynard
19 FB Darryl Johnston
23 OG Bill Fralic
25 K Rob Bironas

VX on Defense:
1 DE Reggie White
2 LB Ray Nitschke
7 S Rodney Harrison
9 DT Cortez Kennedy
12 S LeRoy Butler
13 LB Randy Gradishar
15 LB/DE Leslie O'Neal
16 FB Larry Centers
17 S Dick Anderson
21 DL Richard Seymour
22 DE TOO TALL
25 CB Patrick Surtain
26 CB Sam Madison

The key here is Chuck Bednarik. There was a good argument about this last round, but I'm going to re-state it again: Consider Chuck, with all his 233 pounds, going up against a front seven loaded with All-Pro and DPOTY (Gradishar, White, Kennedy and that Nitschke guy ain't too bad either) talent. Even if you try and pretend like his lack of size doesn't matter against a modern half-ton defensive line, the fact that BZ has him playing two ways in as critical a position as center and linebacker is a terrible, terrible mistake. My "flex/hybrid" defensive gameplan is pretty similar to the one I had against tominator, but more so this time: Play 5 guys up front, with Too Tall and O'Neal on the outside, Gradishar and Nitschke playing the gaps when possible, and crush Jim Brown until my offense builds a healthy lead, which shouldn't be too difficult (see offensive gameplan next). Once that's done, Marino to Harrison/Gates/Lofton/Maynard is a pretty interesting fight. At that point when it looks like BZ has to depend on throwing the ball more, I'll bring out the 5 DBs and move O'Neal to LB (he plays both in my system) where he can rush the passer and stop the short flat passes. My safeties/linebackers dealt with the likes of Winslow, Ditka, and other tough tight ends in their time; Gates is basically a tall as hell fourth receiver. My Dolphin Duo has shown to be able to stop Harrison in the past, while Marino will get some passes off to Lofton, it's nothing to be terribly worried about. Basically my defense might give up some yards midfield, but doubtful that they'll give up much, if anything, within field goal range. Bironas can go and kick his heart out. I don't care. Because..

VX on Offense:
3 QB John Elway
4 RB Marshall Faulk
5 C Mike Webster
6 WR-KR/PR Tim Brown
8 WR Isaac Bruce
10 WR Paul Warfield
11 T Joe Jacoby
14 G Russ Grimm
18 G Guy McIntyre
20 T Matt Light
23 K Matt Stover
24 TE Mark Bavaro

BZ on Defense:
3 DT Alan Page
4 LB Chuck Bednarik
7 CB Mike Haynes
8 LB Sam Huff
10 S Jack Christiansen
11 LB Chris Hanburger
15 DE LC Greenwood
17 DE Fred Dean
20 DT Henry Jordan
21 S Deron Cherry
22 DT Joe Klecko
24 CB Everson Walls
26 P Sean Landeta

Much like my gameplan against tom, but much more so, BZ has a tough as hell defensive line with Page, Klecko, and Dean, and Huff's a good linebacker, but the rest of his defense seems like a bit of an afterthought and kind of haphazardly put together. Webster can and did handle guys like Page very well and pretty easily (The Steelers had 242 yds. rushing against the Vikings in SB IX, so there's your Page/Webster match-up) and the combination of the Hogs, McIntyre, Matt Light, and Mark Bavaro could give Faulk his usual ho-hum 100 something yards with 70-80 yards receiving. However, I'll start the game out passing to my team which can spread out BZ's defense pretty easily, avoid Christiansen and maybe go at Cherry/Walls (heh, Cherry Walls) and get a few points out of that, maybe a couple touchdowns by mid 2nd quarter, and then let Faulk run wild in the second half. I can't believe Porter said Faulk wasn't a good runner; is he fucking high? Faulk had at least 1300 yards from 1998-2001; of course he's no Jim Brown/Peyton/Smith type, but Brown can't be called on to catch and keep running hard as well, as evidenced by his 1962 season where he had a career high 517 yards receiving, but a career low 996 yards rushing (still pretty good, though). I still haven't come across a defense yet where I feel I need a punter. No reason why this offense shouldn't get at least to BZ's 25-30 yard line every single time.

and finally, the coaching matchup.
Bill Walsh vs. Tom Landry.

That's a hell of a tough match-up there, but I feel pretty confident about it. Thankfully, Walsh and Landry's careers coincided and I was able to look at the overall record of their head to head matchups. Overall, Bill Walsh went 4-2 against Tom Landry in their careers which intertwined from 1979-1988. One of those 4 wins was in the 1981 NFC Championship where Walsh's Niners bested Landry's Cowboys 28-27 thanks to Joe Montana and this guy named Dwight Clark. If this game comes down to wire, I'm fairly confident in Walsh, who despite coaching 19 years less than Landry has one more Super bowl than he does, to come up with a perfect gameplan for Elway to work his magic and win.

 

[MFer]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

MFer’s Offense
QB Tom Brady
RB Tony Dorsett
RB/WR Eric Metcalf
FB Jim Taylor
WR Steve Largent
WR Sterling Sharpe
TE Dave Casper
LT Walter Jones
LG Alan Faneca
C Dwight Stephenson
RG Chris Hinton
RT Willie Anderson

Tonyjaymz’s Defense
DE Elvin Bethea
DE Jack Youngblood
NT Kris Jenkins
ILB Mike Singletary
ILB Zach Thomas
OLB Greg Lloyd
OLB Julian Peterson
CB Ty Law
CB Ronde Barber
S John Lynch
S Kenny Easley

Looks like Tony’s opted for a 3-4 defense here. It’s gonna be interesting running the ball cuz I have a smaller backfield and center going up against the mammoth Jenkins plus Singletary and Thomas. Still, I think my team can have some success running up the middle by double-teaming Jenkins. Jim Taylor will play a big role in this game as a rusher on the quick fullback dives and as a lead blocker on iso plays. Dorsett can make big plays off of screens and draws against the aggressive 3-4. The passing game is what should get me my points though. Brady’s had success in the past running the spread shotgun offense against the 3-4 and I plan to use that offense at certain points in the game (3rd downs, 2-minute drills, etc...) with Largent as the short man, Sharpe as the deep man, Metcalf as the slot guy, Dorsett catching swing passes and motioning out to WR, and Taylor as the blocking back. For pass protection, Walter Jones can handle either Lloyd or Peterson while I can always have Casper stay in to help Anderson on the other side if I need to. Youngblood playing in the 3-4 could hinder him a little bit. Overall, I feel that my passing attack matches up well against Tony’s back 7. Brady just needs to get rid of the ball before the D gets to him, which I believe he’ll do more often than not.

Tonyjaymz’s Offense
QB Brett Favre
RB Jerome Bettis
FB Larry Csonka
WR Jerry Rice
WR Michael Irvin
TE Todd Heap
TE Jeremy Shockey
OT Art Shell
OT Bob “Boomer” Brown
OG Ruben Brown
OG Shaun Andrews
C Mark Stepnoski

MFer’s Defense
DE Deacon Jones
DE Jared Allen
DT Buck Buchanan
DT Albert Haynesworth
MLB Mike Curtis
OLB Bobby Bell
OLB Chuck Howley
CB Rod Woodson
CB Jimmy Johnson
FS Cliff Harris
SS Ken Houston

Rice and Irvin is a hell of a combo to deal with but my secondary is as well-equipped as anyone’s to be able to contain it somewhat. Still, it’d be asking a lot to play man-to-man all day. This would be a good time for me to pull out the Cover-2, a defense that Noll and Bud Carson ran during the 70’s with Pittsburgh. Woodson, a top-5 corner by any measure, will line up on Irvin’s side while Johnson, a HOFer who still gets overlooked, will be on Rice’s side. Houston is no worse than the 2nd or 3rd greatest safety of all time, and Harris was an all-70s decade performer who was a HOF finalist a few years ago. Other than that, my front 7 is stout enough to handle the “3 yards and a cloud of dust” tandem of Bettis and Csonka. The TE’s don’t worry me a ton. All I need is for my safeties to play in those deep zones and not give up the big play. Sooner or later, Favre will make a mistake (or two or three) and Woodson or Houston with their combined 21 INT returns for TD’s will capitalize on it.

MFer’s Special Teams/Coach
K Nick Lowery
P Brian Moorman
KR/PR Eric Metcalf
Coach Chuck Noll

Tonyjaymz’s Special Teams/Coach
K Neil Rackers
P Ray Guy
KR/PR Kenny Easley
Coach Joe Gibbs

I think I’ve got a slight edge at kicker with Lowery being more consistent than Rackers. Tony obviously has the advantage at punter with Guy. I do have a very dangerous punt returner in Metcalf though. As great as Guy is, it only takes one clean return for Metcalf to break a big one. As for Easley, he only had 26 punt returns during his career and 0 kick returns so I think that’s a relative weakness for Tony. Noll vs. Gibbs is a great coaching matchup. Noll has the edge, but it’s not by much.

 

[Beast]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

VX, I think your analysis of Bednarik and other greats of pre-1970 the past couple of days has sort of ridiculous. He was known for being able to play constantly, whether it be offense or defense, this guy just didn't tire. His nickname was "Concrete Charlie" for a reason; he stopped players going against him and he took them down HARD. Now I'm not saying guys like Bednarik would have an easy time with 300 pounders on the field today, but size is not that only thing that matters. And I'm not saying you're team isn't better, but Bednarik's the same size as Gradishar anyway.

You obviously can't judge this tourney as if the players are actually lining up and having a game. If that happened, the more modern players would probably run rampant. In an all time baseball tournament, guys like Ryan Howard are probably going to hit more homers than the guys who were power hitters in the 30s. Does that mean the team with Howard as the cleanup guy has an advantage? I don't think it does if you look at the whole picture. What you should do is look at everyone's skill and see what team's have the least weaknesses on paper and pretend all the players are on a n even playing field. Otherwise, someone should have drafted the 2009 All-Pro team and routed everyone else with those monsters.

 

[Fökai]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

Straight from Agent's second post in the other thread. It sums up my thoughts:

5. Regarding players that played multiple positions: You can certainly have Deion Sanders be your starting CB and return man. Feel free to use that "return man roster spot" on something like a special teams gunner, 3rd down back, etc. Be creative. HOWEVER, say you choose an old-timey 2 way lineman; when it comes down to judgment time, fatigue is fair game in terms of estimating whether that player will wear down and hurt their performance. Draft wisely.

I would never expect anyone to play two ways against teams this good, while maintaining the level at which Bednarik played for his career. Bednarik has to go from covering Elway/Faulk/Tim Brown/Bruce/Warfield/Bavaro to lining up against Reggie/Cortez/Seymour/Too Tall. That is a ridiculously tall order for any player, and VX has every right to consider that as an advantage, especially for a man who played two of the most physically demanding positions in the league.

 

[Vitamin X]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

VX, I think your analysis of Bednarik and other greats of pre-1970 the past couple of days has sort of ridiculous. He was known for being able to play constantly, whether it be offense or defense, this guy just didn't tire. His nickname was "Concrete Charlie" for a reason; he stopped players going against him and he took them down HARD. Now I'm not saying guys like Bednarik would have an easy time with 300 pounders on the field today, but size is not that only thing that matters. And I'm not saying you're team isn't better, but Bednarik's the same size as Gradishar anyway.

You obviously can't judge this tourney as if the players are actually lining up and having a game. If that happened, the more modern players would probably run rampant. In an all time baseball tournament, guys like Ryan Howard are probably going to hit more homers than the guys who were power hitters in the 30s. Does that mean the team with Howard as the cleanup guy has an advantage? I don't think it does if you look at the whole picture. What you should do is look at everyone's skill and see what team's have the least weaknesses on paper and pretend all the players are on a n even playing field. Otherwise, someone should have drafted the 2009 All-Pro team and routed everyone else with those monsters.

Beast,
I think your analysis of my analysis is sort of ridiculous. I quote from my own gameplan,

Even if you try and pretend like his lack of size doesn't matter against a modern half-ton defensive line, the fact that BZ has him playing two ways in as critical a position as center and linebacker is a terrible, terrible mistake.

I realize that we're talking about skill vs. skill here in the player's era vs. their own eras and how they would've played, but I'm accounting for that with the consideration that Bednarik is playing two ways againt both an offense and a defense that is out of his league, both figuratively in his own era and quite literally.

And as Fokai put it, it's a hell of a disadvantage. It's not my fault that Brooklyn Zoo decided to draft a 3rd receiver when he really didn't need one instead of drafting an actual fifth lineman rather than being lazy at the end and having Bednarik play two ways. When BZ drafted him in the 4th round he said

I'm going linebacker here. I thought about this for like 20 minutes and I'm going to go with a guy that will fuck you up. This guy thinks that football players today are pussies and you know what, who am I to disagree? He was literally on the field knocked out for a year. The one and only:Chuck Bednarik.
Oh yeah and he might be my center too.

Which shows that A. BZ drafted him specifically as a LB to begin with and thought of center as an afterthought, and B. Thought it laughable that football players today are pussies. I'll have Reggie stunt inside with a safety blitz from Rodney Harrison and show him how much of a fuckin' pussy today's football players are, when he goes out of the game on a stretcher. Bednarik wants to brag about putting Frank "Wasn't Drafted By Anyone In This Fuckin' Tourney" Gifford on a stretcher when my linebacker Randy Gradishar who has gotten overlooked two years in a row now was the guy who Walter Peyton got hit by the hardest? Are you callin' Walter fuckin' Peyton more of a pussy than Frank Gifford because he got rocked by my guy Gradishar?

Beast, Brooklyn Zoo, Porter.... Who ya crappin'?

 

[Agent of Oblivion]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

The more I've looked at it, the more I love it.

1 QB Peyton Manning
2 OL Bruce Matthews
3 RB Emmitt Smith
4 OT Forrest Gregg
5 C Jim Otto
6 OT Gary Zimmerman
7 CB Darrell Green
8 G Joe DeLamielleure
9 WR-KR/PR "Bullet" Bob Hayes
10 WR Raymond Berry
11 S Jack "The Assassin" Tatum
12 DT Ernie Stautner
13 LB Dave Wilcox
14 CB/S-KR/PR Mel Renfro
15 WR Fred Biletnikoff
16 LB Cornelius Bennett
17 LB Hardy Nickerson
18 TE Ozzie Newsome
19 CB Ken Riley
20 DE Rich "Tombstone" Jackson
21 Coach Tony Dungy
22 DL Bill Willis
23 DE Len Ford
24 FB Lorenzo Neal
25 K George Blanda
26 P Jerrel "Thunderfoot" Wilson

1 LB Jack Lambert
2 LB Ray Lewis
3 DE Gino Marchetti
4 T Jim Parker
5 S Larry Wilson
6 TE Tony Gonzalez
7 G Mike Munchak
8 RB Curtis Martin
9 FB Roger Craig
10 DE Lee Roy Selmon
11 Coach Vince Lombardi
12 C Jim Langer
13 T Rayfield Wright
14 CB Bob Boyd
15 G Gene Hickerson
16 NT Jamal Williams
17 CB/S Eddie Meador
18 WR Hines Ward
19 QB Otto Graham
20 LB DeMarcus Ware
21 LB Lee Roy Jordan
22 CB Dave Grayson
23 WR Anquan Boldin
24 KR Rick Upchurch
25 K Nate Kaeding
26 P Darren Bennett

OG put together a blue collar team of roughnecks that look to bully their way to a championship. I'm going to do the last thing anyone would ever try against this team. I'm going to punch it right in the face.

I'll take my offensive line over any DL in this draft. I documented Joe D's succeess against Mean Joe when I selected him. If you can succeed against him, you can succeed against any DT. He is lined up next to Jim Otto, a guy who was perpetually successful (and very respectful of) Kansas City's dreaded Curley Culp, who could be thought of as the Jamal Williams of his time, should Williams sustain his career at this level. On Otto's other side is Bruce Matthews, whose career speaks for itself. These guys, and Lorenzo Neal, are going to take it in turns to beat the shit out of Jamal for the entire first quarter, with Emmitt carrying the workload. Lewis and Lambert in the middle is a motherfucker to deal with, and I'm not expecting to bust this thing wide open. Smith's going to take some licks, but the guy is the definition of durable, balanced, and sure-handed.

Lombardi being VINCE LOMBARDI, he's going to adjust quickly, and I'd expect more of a 5-2 look, with Lewis and Lee Roy between Williams and his very good DEs. When this inevitably happens, it's time for Peyton's bread-and-BUTTer, the play action pass. DeMarcus Ware is a goddamned animal of a pass rusher, but Lorenzo Neal would attempt to block an oncoming dump truck, and Gregg/Zimmerman are HOFers that blocked for HOFers, so I'm not sweating my blitz protection. Go all out and send the farm, and Manning will pick him apart with my sure-handed receivers. Stay at home, and I'll take 3-4 yards every time.

Bob Hayes is the fastest player in the history of football. If I can get him in a single coverage situation, I'm going to try to get one of his corners to bite on play-action and throw a strike.

My offensive goal is to sustain long scoring drives, and keep all 3rd downs manageable. 3rd and less than 4. Take advantages of big play opportunities, but don't force them.

Defensively, this is going to be difficult. I want to minimize his opportunities by keeping his offense off the field, and get them off as quickly as possible by making him play one-dimensionally by having Tatum shadow Curtis Martin, and play most of the game in or near the box. Doing this will force long third downs and give opportunities to make negative plays. While his offense is more physical than my speedy D, I want to even it out by gang tackling and going for strips. No fancy blitzes or anything. This is going to be cover 2 D all the way. Luckily, what I don't see much of with his offense is team speed. I think my corners are good enough to go single coverage with Hines and Anquan. Wilcox was adept at crushing TEs, and Gonzalez is his most prolific and dynamic playmaker. I like that matchup and expect to win it most of the time.

My goal defensively is to make him play one-dimensional ball and make opportunities for negative plays. Do not allow myself to be dominated physically.

Special teams is a pretty simple deal. Respect Rick Upchurch, and win the battle of field position. I'd expect him to have the same gameplan here. I don't think this part of the game will make or break it for either of us.

Final Score: 27-20

 

[Agent of Oblivion]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

I still haven't come across a defense yet where I feel I need a punter

This statement is ridiculous.

 

[Next USC #55]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

John Elway has a career rating of 79.9... enough said. Zoo's defense can, and WILL, easily contain the passing game, yes.

VX, just because you think you have an awesome quarterback doesn't mean you actually have an awesome quarterback.

I've watched this guy for years, and call me unimpressed in the greatest degree.

 

[Beast]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

I just think that a player who thrived on playing two-ways shouldn't automatically be punished for it in this tourney. Absolutely, fatigue might play a part, but he wasn't just your average multiple position player. So you can throw out your generalities about how he's going to be hit hard, stopped, knocked around, unable to contain so-and-so, but I don't think that's true. Just looking at his history as a player and all-around skill level, the fantastic teams he played against, those players he went up with, I don't think he would have the problems you're saying.

That was some quality drafting on Zoo's part picking up a great lineman/center in one. Playing both positions wasn't anything close to a problem for this guy, so the generality that he'll be hurt more since he's in there twice as much doesn't cut it for me. He was getting hit hard and fast back then too.

 

[Vitamin X]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

John Elway has a career rating of 79.9... enough said. Zoo's defense can, and WILL, easily contain the passing game, yes.

This is a pretty dumb statement (the QB rating, not the containing the passing game part). QB rating means all of jack shit in this tournament; what matters most is how well he meshes with his team. Elway has a career rating of 79.9 because he had nothing to work with on offense until the 90s. Marino never had a running game, but at least he had Clayton/Duper until 92, 93. Elway had guys like Steve Watson, Vance Johnson, Sammy Winder (who actually had a couple Pro Bowls- probably more due to Elway than anything he did, though) and Mark Jackson to throw to in the 80s. Once he got Shannon Sharpe in 93, his rating never went below 85.7 which was good enough for fourth best in the NFL that year.

I'm definitely not trying to say Elway's a better passer than Marino; but he was far more mobile than he was, running for over 3000 yards just behind Young and Cunningham and probably Vick. He wasn't as efficient as Steve Young either, judging by QB rating alone- but he won 200 some more games than he did, and threw more touchdowns as well (in part due to Young's time with the Bucs, obviously, but that also means we have far less time to judge Young as a QB over the long-term as well). I think my selecting Elway was like the fourth or fifth QB taken? Maybe sooner? I know I was choosing in between him and Young in the tournament, and I went with Elway for good reason.

Whether you agree or not is up to you, of course, and how long I'll last in the tournament.

 

[Vitamin X]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

So, is half the field knocked out now due to lack of participation, or what?

 

[HarleyQuinn]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

Aren't we just waiting on Youth's write up now?

 

[Vitamin X]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

We're waiting on the entire YouthNAsia/Fokai match-up. So I was off by 25%.

 

[OG]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

I'll have my write up ASAP.

 

[Youth N Asia]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

Sorry. I'll have mine up by Saturday afternoon. I can't do it now cause I'm on my phone at work.

 

[OG]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

1 QB Peyton Manning
2 OL Bruce Matthews
3 RB Emmitt Smith
4 OT Forrest Gregg
5 C Jim Otto
6 OT Gary Zimmerman
7 CB Darrell Green
8 G Joe DeLamielleure
9 WR-KR/PR "Bullet" Bob Hayes
10 WR Raymond Berry
11 S Jack "The Assassin" Tatum
12 DT Ernie Stautner
13 LB Dave Wilcox
14 CB/S-KR/PR Mel Renfro
15 WR Fred Biletnikoff
16 LB Cornelius Bennett
17 LB Hardy Nickerson
18 TE Ozzie Newsome
19 CB Ken Riley
20 DE Rich "Tombstone" Jackson
21 Coach Tony Dungy
22 DL Bill Willis
23 DE Len Ford
24 FB Lorenzo Neal
25 K George Blanda
26 P Jerrel "Thunderfoot" Wilson

1 LB Jack Lambert
2 LB Ray Lewis
3 DE Gino Marchetti
4 T Jim Parker
5 S Larry Wilson
6 TE Tony Gonzalez
7 G Mike Munchak
8 RB Curtis Martin
9 FB Roger Craig
10 DE Lee Roy Selmon
11 Coach Vince Lombardi
12 C Jim Langer
13 T Rayfield Wright
14 CB Bob Boyd
15 G Gene Hickerson
16 NT Jamal Williams
17 CB/S Eddie Meador
18 WR Hines Ward
19 QB Otto Graham
20 LB DeMarcus Ware
21 LB Lee Roy Jordan
22 CB Dave Grayson
23 WR Anquan Boldin
24 KR Rick Upchurch
25 K Nate Kaeding
26 P Darren Bennett

I like this match up.

I'll start with my defense. Peyton Manning is always a chore to plan for. He's great at impovising and rarely makes mistakes. Emmitt is obviously a legend and his recievers are speed demons. I won't blitz much as his offensive line is the best one drafted. Manning will not take many sacks with those 5 guys in front of him and I won't waste my time. Instead I will blitz with DeMarcus Ware and Lee Roy Selmon while leaving Marchetti to focus on the run. Marchetti is one of the great tacklers of all-time at the defensive end position and I will leave him and the mass of Jamal Williams to clog up the middle and not allow Emmitt to break big runs. Lee Roy Jordan is the greatest tackler in Cowboys history and, if Emmitt gets by my D-line, either Jordan will tie him up or Jack Lambert will lay him out. Emmitt, despite the great O-line will have nowhere to go.

AoO's offensive output will depend on his passing game. Hayes, Berry and Biletnikoff are three very speedy guys. Boyd and Grayson will be play them very physically while Wilson and Meador will stay deeper to insure Boyd and Grayson. Both Wilson and Meador were great tacklers while all 4 guys were ball hawks. Manning will complete passes but it won't be easy and it will be hard for his receivers to break away. The short and play action are are Peyton's bread and BUTTer and Lambert and Lewis will will be responsible for cutting the field in half. My goal is to, basically, stick his deep recievers on an island with my secondary. Between Jordan, Marchetti, Lambert and Lewis, my tackling is second to none. Any short completions made will not amount to much. Even Selmon will drop back, at times, to help with tackling. Thankfully, Manning is not a running threat at all so my strategy of refocusing much of my blitz onto tackling and stopping play action passes will be effective.

Offensively my team will have to play very smart. His D-line is solid but unspectacular. Between Martin's grit and Craig's speed and shiftiness, we'll be able to wear them out. I will use a running back by committee in this game and alternate Craig between having him as my primary back and using him as a reciever. Craig is my top weapon in this game. His linebacking corps isn't that good and I will exploit that. Ward will play as a possession reciever and use his strength against whoever is covering him. His linebacking corps will struggle dealing with Ward, Gonzalez and Craig in the short game. No linebacker has been able to cover Gonzalez one on one and I don't think any of his guys can. Otto Graham's mobility will be huge too as he is always a threat to run. Especially in the redzone, Graham's running ability will force his D to stay honest. It won't be pretty and our drives will last forever but his D is not good enough to stop my team from moving the ball.

Special teams, well I agree with him. I like my punter, I like my kicker and I respect his returner. This is important but will not decide the game.

It will be a tight game and it will be very hard hitting but, in the end, the red zone is where this game will be decided. His speed will be useless in the redzone, my tacklers won't make mistakes and I'll be able to stack the box on Emmitt when they run. My team is damn near unstoppable in the redzone because of all my options. He'll settle for field goals, I'll score touchdowns.

Final Score: OG 24, AoO 15

 

[Agent of Oblivion]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

My goal is to, basically, stick his deep recievers on an island with my secondary

Dangerous move with a QB that can thread a needle.

 

[OG]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

My goal is to, basically, stick his deep recievers on an island with my secondary

Dangerous move with a QB that can thread a needle.

My goal is to shut down anything short - be it run or pass. Manning will make some big completions but I have enough faith in my secondary to keep those completions from scoring and in the redzone the speed of your recievers will be useless. Plus. I'm Colts fan who has watched Manning his whole career. He has rarely, if ever, won a game relying solely on big plays Brett Favre-style. It's just not his game. Not saying he can't, just hasn't really ever shown it.

 

[Agent of Oblivion]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

See, I don't think you can shut down the run. The reason I like this matchup so much is that my OL/FB/TE vs your front seven is just the clash of the titans. It's going to be bloody trench warfare and both sides will win big and lose big, I think. There'll be situations where a run blitzing Ray Lewis is going to wrap Smith up three yards behind the line, and there'll be 2nd and 2 where I run one offtackle and see Emmitt gain 11.

Lets also not forget that Biletnikoff and Berry had a knack for getting open in difficult situations.

I also think you're underestimating my red zone offense. Manning has a 204:22 TD/INT ratio in that area. While I can't line up my track team and beat your guys within 20 yards, but I have good enough route runners to find the corners of the endzone and a QB who can lay it in where either they get it or no one does. I'd love to see these two teams line up on 3rd and goal from the one. That would be nasty.

Summing it up, it's looking like we have nearly the same goals on both sides of the ball. It's up to whoever blinks first.

 

[Gert]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

How long do we have to vote? Will post by tomorrow night 9pm at the latest.

 

[OG]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

See, I don't think you can shut down the run. The reason I like this matchup so much is that my OL/FB/TE vs your front seven is just the clash of the titans. It's going to be bloody trench warfare and both sides will win big and lose big, I think. There'll be situations where a run blitzing Ray Lewis is going to wrap Smith up three yards behind the line, and there'll be 2nd and 2 where I run one offtackle and see Emmitt gain 11.

Lets also not forget that Biletnikoff and Berry had a knack for getting open in difficult situations.

I also think you're underestimating my red zone offense. Manning has a 204:22 TD/INT ratio in that area. While I can't line up my track team and beat your guys within 20 yards, but I have good enough route runners to find the corners of the endzone and a QB who can lay it in where either they get it or no one does. I'd love to see these two teams line up on 3rd and goal from the one. That would be nasty.

Summing it up, it's looking like we have nearly the same goals on both sides of the ball. It's up to whoever blinks first.

I'm really liking this strategical battle we've got going. This is the reason I like doing these drafts.

As for Emmitt Smith, I've seen enough games where he was shut down or got yards but they proved completely meaningless that I have little doubt that my guys could stop him. Plus, Manning likes using a lot of play action and needs a back who can catch a lot of passes. Emmitt was a decent pass catching back but nothing special. It's a close battle but I certainly don't see Emmitt as being a very decisive factor.

Either way, there will be lots of long drives on both ends and it will be a game of mistakes. I would kill to see this game actually happen.

 

[EHME]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

OriginalGoblin
Vitamin X

Fokai
MFer

 

[Vitamin X]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

Yeah, I'd say it's voting time as well.

OriginalGoblin - I was all set and ready to vote for Agent after his write-up, and this took me a while to figure out, but I feel more and more confident in voting for Goblin especially after I considered that Agent's plan is to run it at Goblin as much as possible. I recognize that Agent said he would take his o-line over any d-line in this tournament, but I think that Goblin wins out from more solid linebacking and coaching. The latter is due to my belief that Agent is kind of going with an "old school" gameplan against an actual "old school" coach who was used to seeing that kind of plan and can/will counter it. Also, play action? I'm pretty sure Jack Lambert and Ray Lewis will know exactly what to do with it. The only weakness I see in Goblin's team here is that his front seven is very, very poorly equipped for a 3-4, at least on the defensive line. Selmons and Marchetti I see as being more guys who should be rushing the passer on the edge and playing outside than trying to make holes for the LBs to go through. Goblin wins here I think because of the red zone, Peyton Manning be damned. Something like 17-14.

Fokai - Neither him nor YNA submitted a write-up for this round, so in reality I don't feel much like having either guy advance.. I just picked Fokai's team because I liked it better in the match-up.

MFer - I really wanted to like tonyjaymz's team a lot more- I think MFer had the right gameplan to beat him though, plus he has the big edge both on special teams (Metcalf and Lowery to MFer and only Ray Guy to tonyjaymz) and a tremendous coaching advantage in Chuck Noll over Joe Gibbs. If anyone can come up with a defensive gameplan to crush Favre/Rice/Irvin, it's him- not to mention a tremendous secondary. I think the one way which tony could've beat MFer would've been if he concentrated on the run, and I'm not as sold on Jerome Bettis getting it done against that mammoth defensive line, but I think Bettis can break through MFer's not particularly great LB core. This was a really tough match-up to pick.

 

[Fökai]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

I'll start first with my first-round analysis of YNA's team:

Gert over YNA. Moss v. Night Train would be a sight to see, but not a great match for Moss, who will likely draw a double team from Sharper on crucial plays. I could analyze Payton/Alstott v. Gert's D-Line and LBs all night, but I feel it's basically a wash with Strahan and Gastineau, who won't be engaged in the trenches for long, chasing down Young and Payton sideline-to-sideline all game. I really think that YNA missed the boat on adding linemen to complement his offense.

The era-to-era comparison sours me on Sammy Baugh, but with Gert's offensive line, you could have me handing that ball to Thurman Thomas for a first-down here and there. YNA's defense is stout, but not a playmaking D that can figure out to get past Munoz and Upshaw, who will bail Baugh out of a lot of tough situations.

I see this game coming down to Gert beating YNA with the sum of his parts, while not all too spectacular, being more consistent as the game goes on.

YNA's offense
QB Steve Young
WR Randy Moss
WR Herman Moore
WR Irving Fryar
TE John Mackey
RB Walter Payton
FB Mike Alstott
---
OG Tom Mack
OG Lou Creekmur
OT Jackie Slater
OT Chris Samuels
C Jeff Saturday

FOKAI's defense
7 DT Randy White
10 DT Dan Hampton
13 DE Willie Davis
14 LB/DE Jason Taylor
---
1 LB Lawrence Taylor
11 LB Harry Carson
21 LB/DE Willie McGinest
---
2 CB Ronnie Lott
8 CB Herb Adderley
19 S Bob Sanders
20 CB Nnamdi Asomugha

I don't want to say that Chris Samuels is a bad pick for being the weakside protection for Young, but there are certainly better options at right tackle. I got burned for picking Samuels last draft, and I got him simply for run blocking. Now, he runs into a strong and agile pass rusher in Jason Taylor. Young can scramble at will, so Taylor would have to be spelled by McGinest. When either are at ROLB, they can scan Young's options and use that information at the line. I won't speak ill of Jackie Slater, so I'd consider his match-up with Willie Davis a wash. Davis was a freak of nature, so I'd contend that he can pick up a sack or two on the slower, broader Slater.

His interior linemen (Creekmur/Mack) goes against my All-80's d-tackles in White and Hampton. While Saturday can help to keep them at bay, I'd expect any d-tackle duo that strong to collapse the line, which both did through sheer force and drive, despite being undersized. Payton and Alstott are a formidable duo in practice, but I don't see them meshing as well as they should. Payton was never one to run behind tackles and fullbacks, being an elusive runner, so Alstott only has a small window to open on my interior line and linebackers. Who do you think wins that? If I can hold Payton to no big yardage gains - maybe 25 rushes for 120 yards - I'd consider that a victory.

When all is said and done, Randy Moss will stand second to Rice in every major receiving category; that much I'll give him. But, Asomugha may be the only legitimate answer to Moss in the current NFL -- their last matchup resulted in 3 catches for 40 yards for Moss -- and that's without the Raiders having a safety worth a damn. Imagine if a Ronnie Lott or Bob Sanders were there to blanket over the top on Moss, giving Asomugha underneath. Welcome to my team. Moore had a peak in the 90's that resulted in one of the best receiving seasons of all time (1995), but Adderley was so consistent over an entire decade that you can't call this anything more than a wash. I'd be surprised to see Moore get more (ha!) than 5-6 receptions for 50 yards. Mackey was horribly underrated as a receiving end in his era, but how he is planning to run a route with LT ready to dismantle Young? Mack is bound to spend most of his game at the line (when Fryar is out) instead of breaking into the open field.

As a diehard Niners fan, I am aware of what Steve Young can do - he can expose mismatches on the field, both with his feet and arm, but he is going to have to work very hard to expose my defense. Especially when he's constantly on the move, running away from Lawrence Taylor....

FOKAI's offense
5 RB Earl Campbell
6 WR Terrell Owens
12 RB Marcus Allen
16 WR Chad Ocho Cinco
17 QB Kurt Warner
18 TE Jason Witten
23 WR/KR John Taylor
---
3 LG John Hannah
4 LT Orlando Pace
9 RG Larry Little
15 RT Erik Williams
26 C Matt Birk

YNA's defense
DE Chris Doleman
DE Charles Haley
DT Dana Stubblefield
DT Shaun Rogers
--
LB Derrick Thomas
LB Derrick Brooks
LB Jesse Tuggle
--
S Johnny Robinson
S Willie Wood
CB Lem Barney
CB Eric Allen

I'll expand on two matchups:

*YNA's d-line: The only thing missing is speed. All four are underrated, but his interior is simply only good, which will not hold up to Hannah, Birk and Little. Get the trenches engaged, run Campbell (as fullback) in to set up the battering ram, then run Marcus Allen right through whatever is left. Let me punch his defense right in the nose, His linebacker crew were all good chasers, so I don't see big yardage gains on the outside off of my patented sweep, but I will run right at Brooks and Tuggle up the middle with Earl Campbell and see what I can get. In an open-field situation against Earl, it's going to be a long day for anyone.

*Passing game v. secondary. Again, use Witten right up the middle to attack the linebackers, give them no time to rest. Allen and Barney had the statistics and accomplishments suitable to make a great corner duo, but a quick look at the size disparities...

Owens: 6'3", 224 v. Barney: 6'0", 188 lbs.
Johnson: 6'1, 192 v. Allen: 5'10", 180 lbs.

...gives me the slight edge. While EHME had the guys to punch my receivers in the mouth, YNA's corners are not that. I will go to Kurt's jump ball to attempt to expose his corners, staying away from Willie Wood (c'mon, Robinson played against AFL competition for most of his career). With the stronger, taller receivers, I'm bound to break a few big receptions; YAC is the key statistic in my fight.

FOKAI's special teams
22 K Jason Elam
23 WR/KR John Taylor
24 Coach George Seifert
25 P Reggie Roby

YNA's special teams
K John Carney
P Todd Sauerbrun
KR/PR Irving Fryar
Coach Bill Cowher

Match-up leans slightly toward me on the kicking game with Elam and Roby; a wash in coaching.

I'll vote later today.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

OrangeGoblin
Vitamin X

Fokai
MFer

I'll try to add reasons later.

 

[Kageho]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

The man who disappears for weeks at a time now drops down his votes:

OriginalGoblin
Vitamin X

Fokai
MFer

 

[tonyjaymz03]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

I feel like the Titans...one and done...c'est la vie

OG
VX
Fokai

 

[OG]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

VX - Elway/Faulk is my favorite QB/RB combination drafted. A shoot-out but VX's defense will make more key stops.
Fokai - The defense puts him over the top in a close battle.
MFer - Very efficient offense and a great secondary which will capitalize on Favre's mistakes.

 

[MFer]

The All Time NFL Draft Tournament: ROUND TWO BEGINS NOW

Agent over Goblin-I’m not sure if Agent trying to pound the ball is the best move considering Williams clogging the middle plus Lewis, Lambert, and Jordan backing him up, but he has the horses on offense to be effective enough running the ball to give Peyton play-action opportunities. I really like Agent’s receivers against Goblin’s secondary, despite the presence of Wilson. Berry and Biletnikoff are great possession receivers. Hayes can blow past any member of Goblin’s D, and Newsome is an dangerous receiving threat at TE. On the other side of the ball, Goblin seems to have more of the solid but unspectacular types of offense. Guys like Martin, Ward, and Boldin are great players, but they aren’t necessarily explosive players. Agent’s secondary is a faster bunch that can make big plays. Not as high on Agent’s front seven, but I do like Wilcox, and Ford and Jackson should be able to generate a nice pass rush.

VX over Brooklyn Zoo-I just think BZ is a couple defenders short of being able to slow down VX’s offense. BZ can put some points up on the board as he has a lot of offensive playmakers too, but VX’s D has a little more size and speed, and can hold up better over a 60-minute game than BZ’s D IMO.

Fokai over YnA-As long as Fokai’s O-line can keep Derrick Thomas off of Warner (which I think they can), he should be fine. Besides, with the way YnA has listed his roster, it looks like Thomas will be playing more in a 4-3 (unless he drops Haley back as a LB), which limits him a little bit. I think Fokai’s D is one of the better ones out there and I like his special teams better.

I also noticed that I'm the 1st person to vote for someone different (Agent in this case).