Batman & Robin- playing the devil's advocate

[Anakin Flair]

Okay, so not that long ago I purchased the Batman: The Motion Picture Anthology boxed set. The main reason I did this, asides from the extras included with the movies (an excellent six-part documentary detailing the making of all of the films) was due to the director's commentary track on Batman and Robin. And it got me thinking-

We all vilify Schumacher, and rightfully so in some cases. But I believe that Batman and Robin suffered more from studio interference than anything Joel did. From them wanting to rush the film into production, to making it more 'Toyetic', to forcing Joel and his team to rush every little detail so they could send the plans overseas to make the molds from the toys, I believe the Studio fucked this movie up far more than Joel would have done on his own. Hell, even Chris O'Donnell said he felt more like he was making a toy commercial than a movie! Were there other problems? Sure! Changing Barbara Gordon's backstory to make her Alfred's niece, Uma Thurman's over the top performance as Poison Ivy, BANE!

I guess the topic of discussion is this. Had Warner Brothers stayed hands off- had they allowed the producers time to polish a script and have ample time for pre and post production, would the movie- even with Schumacher directing and the same cast in place- been better? Or would it still have sucked?

 

[OG]

It was so badly miscast (everyone from Clooney to Arnie to Thurman to Silverstone) that it never had a hope in hell of succeeding.

 

[Mattdotcom]

I got the box set when it came out for the same reason you did. The extras are great. As for the question at hand, no, because you left out one of the worst offenders: Academy Award Winner Akiva Goldsmith. He made the screenplay of Batman Forever as childish as possible, but there were several other writers involved in that one. Here he had free reign to make what he felt was a good Batman story, and he has no grasp of the concept. Also, Schumacher's attempts to defend himself as a victim of the studio are undermined by footage of him from the DVD on set directing his actors with the immortal line "we are making a cartoon!".

I would also like to accuse Schumacher from liberally stealing plot devices from Batman: The Animated Series while ignoring the superior storytelling aspects of the series.

 

[Jingus]

Even if the studios hadn't interfered at all and the casting hadn't been horribly botched and they'd had all the time they wanted, I doubt it would've been good. The basic ideas were horrible from the very beginning. It might've been not-as-sucky like Batman Forever at the very best.

 

[CBright7831]

I was listening to a podcast on spill.com and they said before Arnold got on board for B&R, Patrick Stewart was in talks to play Mr. Freeze. Once Arnold got on board, they rewrote the entire script to accommodate to him.

Makes me wonder what the first script was like.

 

[Mattdotcom]

I call BS on that. Patrick Stewart was always the ideal casting choice from a fan's perspective, but Joel is quoted as having a shortlist of actors for Freeze that included Arnie and Sly Stallone.

 

[Zeddemore]

I still maintain the film is God-damn hilarious. Not in the way they intended, but it's so bad I can't bring myself to hate it. It just loops around to being unintentionally hilarious.

 

[DrVenkman PhD]

Arnold Schwarzenegger As Mr. Freeze - Songs and His Plans

Mr. Freeze

Mr. Freeze's Puns

 

[Slayer]

Awful as the movie is, I actually enjoyed Ahnold serving up big delicious slices of ham, which was the best thing (or possibly least offensive thing) about the movie.

Uma's horrible attempts at channeling Mae West, however, still induces shudders

 

[CBright7831]

Im just glad Schumacher never got his hands on Scarecrow (my third favorite Batman villain - sadly he got his hands on my second favorite - Two Face). Some of the rumored casting choices sound horrible. Howard Stern? Marilyn Manson? Seriously? Did he really think these were sane choices?

 

[Dobbs3K]

Wow, I had pretty much completely blocked this film from my memory. I hated Clooney as Batman.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Awful as the movie is, I actually enjoyed Ahnold serving up big delicious slices of ham, which was the best thing (or possibly least offensive thing) about the movie.

Uma's horrible attempts at channeling Mae West, however, still induces shudders

No doubt. Arnold is easily the best thing about the movie, even with some of the atrocious dialogue he was given. The rest of the movie is so boring it can put you to sleep. Arnold is at least entertaining in a 'so bad, its good' type of way.

 

[DrVenkman PhD]

Joel Schumacher in Batman cartoon

 

[Czech]

you left out one of the worst offenders: Academy Award Winner Akiva Goldsmith. He made the screenplay of Batman Forever as childish as possible

I'm sorry, but are you telling me a movie based on a comic book about a crime-fighting billionaire who dresses as an anthropomorphic bat and fights cryogenically preserved villains with wacky gadgets and a teenage boy is supposed to be some heavy grown-up business? Come on. Of course it should be children's fare. I'm even drinking from my McDonald's Batman & Robin collectible glass as I write this. It was a shitty movie, but not because it failed to meet the sophisticated tastes of adult theatergoers. It's a fucking Batman movie.

 

[Jingus]

I'm sorry, but are you telling me a movie based on a comic book about a crime-fighting billionaire who dresses as an anthropomorphic bat and fights cryogenically preserved villains with wacky gadgets and a teenage boy is supposed to be some heavy grown-up business?

Um. Yes? After all, the heavy grown-up version of Batman made like ten times as much money as the kiddie movie under discussion here, so it would seem the public does indeed prefer it that way. And just because something's a "children's movie" doesn't mean it has to be synonymous with "garish and inane", as Pixar and others have repeatedly proven. Hell, the Batman: The Animated Series was way more sober and intelligent than Batman & Robin, and it was quite literally a cartoon designed for an audience of children.

 

[Mattdotcom]

I'm saying that a different script actually existed before it was gutted but I really liked those McDonald's glasses when I was ten.

 

[Czech]

Yeah, they're pretty rad. I drink juice out of 'em!

 

[Mattdotcom]

I would drink cola out of them at my grandparents' house. It blew my mind when I realized that the handle of the Two-Face mug was a coin flipping.

Another thing that pissed me off about Schumacher and Goldsmith: coining the name "Harvey Two-Face". Even that bothered me when I was ten. I still say that of the first four Batman Forever might be the second best depending on how I feel that day.

EDIT:Despite all the pot, I can remember the following off the top of my head. I present to you, the history of Batman cups at fast food chains.
1989-Taco Bell had four plastic cups-Batman, Gotham City, the Batwing, and the Batmobile. Each cup had information about the subject printed on one side.
1992-McDonald's has cups featuring Batman, Catwoman, the Penguin, and Bruce dancing with Selina. Each cup has a special Bat-Disc top that can be used as a tiny Frisbee. More importantly, Mickey Dee's makes Happy Meal toys, leading to the backlash that gave birth to the Schumacher films.
1995-The aforementioned mugs.
1997-Taco Bell has cheap plastic cups that house game cards for a matching game. Their kids' meal had toys based on BTAS, so even Taco Bell was smart enough to distance itself from this debacle. Of course, two years later, they'd be one of three Episode I fast food retailers.

 

[Edwin]

Czech, didn't you do this same silly "It's a Batman movie of course it's ridiculous" act over at the old board once? My bat-deja-vu is tingling. Additionally, I watched the Arnold puns clip like 6 times yesterday, and still haven't quite figured out if there's any joke in the "it's a cold town" one.

 

[Mattdotcom]

It's not a real joke, but it is a line that appears in most of the movies. It's an example of the 90s mentality of writers. In Batman, The Joker sings "Ohh there'll be a hot time in the old town tonight" when he joy buzzes the mobster. Selina says "It's gonna be a hot time in the old town tonight" in Returns, and The Riddler was scripted to say it followed up by "Who used to say that? Someone always used to say that!" but I'm not sure if it made the final cut.

 

[BUTT]

Czech, didn't you do this same silly "It's a Batman movie of course it's ridiculous" act over at the old board once?

No, back then it was "There were already five Batman movies, why would you want another one?"

 

[2GOLD]

I still maintain Arnold could have pulled off a serious Mr Freeze mainly because, those brooding scenes were actually pretty good acting. I don't see Arnold desperately needing a script of puns. And come on, what kid did the Batman credit card scene appeal too? The script was a train wreck that was not intending to make a Batman film but a parody of Batman films.

 

[Mattdotcom]

Arnold playing Freeze Terminator-style would have rocked

 

[HarleyQuinn]

The sad thing is that there were glimpses of moments that could've worked in a serious movie but the whole thing had such a camp feel and overboard "kids like puns" feel that it was hard to take the serious stuff seriously when you knew that something comedic was just around the bend a few lines later.

I actually thought Uma could've been decent as Ivy but again, the script just killed any potential right off the bat.

 

[The Coat Is My Father]

right off the bat.

 

[KOAB]

Clooney made such a good Bruce Wayne that it's a shame he sucked goat shit as Batman. You combine Clooney's Bruce with Keaton's blue-collar shtick Batman routine and you'd have The Ultimate Batman.

 

[EHME]

What I hated the most was how corny and cheesy they made Bane.

As youth reading the comics, I thought Bane was one of the most bad ass villians EVER. He broke Batman's fucking back, and took over Gotham City. That nigga needed his own fucking movie, not to be a stupid dumb lackey to Posion Ivy and Mr. Freeze.

 

[Dr. Zaius]

Clooney made such a good Bruce Wayne that it's a shame he sucked goat shit as Batman. You combine Clooney's Bruce with Keaton's blue-collar shtick Batman routine and you'd have The Ultimate Batman.

I think Clooney's Bruce Wayne was pretty one-dimensional. Aside from having a scene where he was suirming on a date, all he did out of costume in that movie was harp at Chris O'Donnell.

 

[KOAB]

I thought he captured Wayne the best up until Bale got the role... he just didn't have much to work with.

 

[Sabre]

I recently watched the blu ray of it and laughed my dick off the entire way through. I love how in the opening fight they already had their suits preloaded with ice scates. Brilliant.