Nuking the Japanese. Cool or not cool?

[cobainwasmurdered]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

You admit that it's tragic but don't see why we're "crying" about it.

 

[KOAB]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Now I know how rescue workers feel to dig through septic tangled debris.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The Japanese took a stance of defiance after the first one, so Truman basically said "We're dead serious" and dropped another on Nagasaki. They surrendered after that one.

Yeah. After the first bomb, the message was "surrender right fucking now, or else we'll keep dropping these forever". Hell, we're lucky they gave up after only two, because we only had two and it would have been weeks or months before we could've manufactured another one.

You would just have used conventional bombs. Which is what a number of advisors wanted to do in the first place.

 

[AA484]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The Japanese took a stance of defiance after the first one, so Truman basically said "We're dead serious" and dropped another on Nagasaki. They surrendered after that one.

Yeah. After the first bomb, the message was "surrender right fucking now, or else we'll keep dropping these forever". Hell, we're lucky they gave up after only two, because we only had two and it would have been weeks or months before we could've manufactured another one.

You would just have used conventional bombs. Which is what a number of advisors wanted to do in the first place.

They had been doing that... for four years. Of course no one had any idea about the global damage that radiation does but it was simpler times back then. Like O'Reilly said, I would have rather seen them used in that instance than used in the cold war, otherwise Russia and the U.S. might both be burned out husks with Road Warrior-like wastelands at this point in time.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The Japanese took a stance of defiance after the first one, so Truman basically said "We're dead serious" and dropped another on Nagasaki. They surrendered after that one.

Yeah. After the first bomb, the message was "surrender right fucking now, or else we'll keep dropping these forever". Hell, we're lucky they gave up after only two, because we only had two and it would have been weeks or months before we could've manufactured another one.

And there was a very real danger that they weren't going to surrender. There was even a failed coup attempt to try and prevent the surrender of Japan.

 

[muzzington]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

So why cry about the means it took to end the war?

Because it was a horrible event? It doesn't matter whether or not it was the best option. It is still a fucking tragedy.

Ends. Means. Justification. Christ.

Don't be so results oriented.

 

[Dobbs3K]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Go interview a survivor some day and we'll see how well your "doubt" holds up.

I mentioned residents of other cities. I have no doubt many who survived in Nagasaki and Hiroshima have bitter feelings about it. But I also believe many in Japan as a whole understood it ended the war and saved many more lives.

 

[alkeiper]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The Japanese took a stance of defiance after the first one, so Truman basically said "We're dead serious" and dropped another on Nagasaki. They surrendered after that one.

Yeah. After the first bomb, the message was "surrender right fucking now, or else we'll keep dropping these forever". Hell, we're lucky they gave up after only two, because we only had two and it would have been weeks or months before we could've manufactured another one.

And there was a very real danger that they weren't going to surrender. There was even a failed coup attempt to try and prevent the surrender of Japan.

Quite right. A bunch has been written about the internal strife in Nazi politics in 1944-45. Not so much of Japan which experienced the same in August '45.

I'm of the mind that the atomic bomb was entirely justified. World War II was total warfare. It was ghastly. By 1945 the war progressed far beyond the slaughter of civilians. I don't think there was a clean way to end the war.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

You admit that it's tragic but don't see why we're "crying" about it.

Again, what options were there? Try and make a go at 58 million deaths?

Country Military Civilian Deaths
USSR 13,600,000 7,700,000 21,300,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan - - 2,000,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,706,000
Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000
France 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary - - 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece - - 520,000
United States 500,000 - 500,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia - - 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
Netherlands 198,000 12,000 210,000
Belgium 76,000 12,000 88,000
Finland - - 84,000
Canada 39,000 - 39,000
India 36,000 - 36,000
Australia 29,000 - 29,000
Albania - - 28,000
Spain 12,000 10,000 22,000
Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000
New Zealand 12,000 - 12,000
Norway - - 10,262
South Africa 9,000 - 9,000
Luxembourg - - 5,000
Denmark 4,000 - 4,000
Total - - 56,125,262

 

[AA484]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

You admit that it's tragic but don't see why we're "crying" about it.

War itself is a tragic thing and trying to see it through rose-colored glasses isn't going to make it seem any less barbaric and cruel. Someone said something earlier about citizens not enlisting, but the vast majority of the German people sure didn't complain too much about the Jews being persecuted or the aggressive land grabbing of the late thirties that Nazi-Germany employed. If Hitler's anti-Jewish platform didn't appeal to so many of the populace he might never have gotten his political career off the ground in the first place. War is always easy for the public to foster and encourage when it's miles away, but all of a sudden when it's on their doorstep and they feel the pain and suffering that they helped to promote by starting it they sing a different tune.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Again, what options were there? Try and make a go at 58 million deaths?

Again, that's not the point. The point is it is still fucking sad. Would the other options have been worse? Probably but it's still fucking sad.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

You admit that it's tragic but don't see why we're "crying" about it.

War itself is a tragic thing and trying to see it through rose-colored glasses isn't going to make it seem any less barbaric and cruel. Someone said something earlier about citizens not enlisting, but the vast majority of the German people sure didn't complain too much about the Jews being persecuted or the aggressive land grabbing of the late thirties that Nazi-Germany employed. If Hitler's anti-Jewish platform didn't appeal to so many of the populace he might never have gotten his political career off the ground in the first place. War is always easy for the public to foster and encourage when it's miles away, but all of a sudden when it's on their doorstep and they feel the pain and suffering that they helped to promote by starting it they sing a different tune.

I'm not saying that bad shit doesn't happen in war. I'm well aware of that. I'm saying it's tragic that innocent people died.

 

[Mazto]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

So that Tsunami, fuckin' sucked right?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/15/japan-radiation-leak-nuclear-crisis

The radiation leak going down is scary stuff.

. Body bags and coffins were running so short that the government may turn to foreign funeral homes for help, he [Hajime Sato] said.

 

[NoCalMike]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Yeah for all the fear our leaders and paranoia our media seems to want to be spread about being BLOWED UP, we are still the only nation to have used a nuclear bomb during war on another country.

Also, from what I remember reading, the fire-bombing of Japanese cities caused probably nearly as much immediate devastation as the atomic bombs did, and it is a very overlooked tragic part of the war due to the amount of attention the atomic bombs get (of course, atomic bombs had longer lingering effects after the initial bombings)

And to claim we didn't know about the radiation that would come afterwards is kinda bullshit. There are documentaries based on the fact that our own military was conducting tests on fellow lower ranking soldiers who had no idea what they were doing besides watching some big explosions. Radio Bikini coming to mind http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0893570/

 

[alkeiper]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Those tests started in 1946. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 1945. At the time of those bombings I believe the US had only conducted a single trial.

 

[Jingus]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Also, from what I remember reading, the fire-bombing of Japanese cities caused probably nearly as much immediate devastation as the atomic bombs did, and it is a very overlooked tragic part of the war due to the amount of attention the atomic bombs get

Yeah, that's what I said earlier. We were already smashing that entire country into a fiery oblivion with conventional explosives. The nukes were just the glowing cherry on the genocidal sundae, as it were. And people forget, the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs weren't anywhere near as powerful as what we think of today when someone says "nuclear explosion". Ever since the Cold War, a single one of our nuclear missle submarines can basically blow up an entire country by itself. Back then, the early nukes were basically just a quicker (and much more expensive) method to cause the same level of destruction that we were already causing with our other bombing raids. At the time, it was a bluff as much as anything: "Did ya SEE that? Now you better do what we say, or else we're gonna drop a HUNDRED of the fucking things on you. (Oh dear God, please don't let them call our bluff and find out we don't have any more bombs now...)"

Those tests started in 1946. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 1945. At the time of those bombings I believe the US had only conducted a single trial.

Yeah. They only detonated the one bomb in Los Alamos to make sure that it worked at all, and then spent all their efforts on getting Fat Man & Little Boy ready to drop as quickly as possible. They were in a huge goddamn hurry to get this new superweapon up and ready to kill people.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Again, what options were there? Try and make a go at 58 million deaths?

Again, that's not the point. The point is it is still fucking sad. Would the other options have been worse? Probably but it's still fucking sad.

You should see me while reading some of these World War 2 books, I become about as close to choking up as my cynical fake macho self will allow. I understand fully the tragic end of war. I was reading your posts as suggesting a more pacifistic effort should have been invoked.

 

[Czech]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

And the Holocaust movies always focus on Jewish victims, when in fact the majority of Holocaust victims were not Jewish. But still, the common perception is that the very worst thing that happened in the war is "what Hitler did to the Jews", with the second-worst thing being "what America did to Hiroshima" when neither one is even close to being true when you look at the statistical facts.

But in terms of sheer enormity, systematic genocide and atomic warfare have to be right up there.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

And the Holocaust movies always focus on Jewish victims, when in fact the majority of Holocaust victims were not Jewish. But still, the common perception is that the very worst thing that happened in the war is "what Hitler did to the Jews", with the second-worst thing being "what America did to Hiroshima" when neither one is even close to being true when you look at the statistical facts.

But in terms of sheer enormity, systematic genocide and atomic warfare have to be right up there.

Tons of events in this war....Pearl Harbor,Bataan Death March, The Stalingrad siege, Rape of Nanking, The POWs treatment by all parties but especially the Germans, Japanese and Russians, The Japanese hell ships that hauled the POWs to Japan and ended with Americans accidentally killing thousands of their own boys, etc etc etc

Americans weren't innocent during the war either, as they killed a lot of POWs so they wouldn't have to deal with them, raped Japanese and British women, etc etc

 

[Jingus]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

But in terms of sheer enormity, systematic genocide and atomic warfare have to be right up there.

Of course they're high on the list. We're talking about some of the worst atrocities committed by modern mankind. But there were a few others which were even worse, so it always bugs me a little when those two (along with Pearl Harbor) get so much attention paid to them while others are practically ignored.

 

[Byron The Bulb]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The reason the Holocaust sticks in the collective unconscious more than the Japanese war crimes or Stalin's purges is that it was a fully "modern," industrialized genocide that was executed following the logic of rational organization. Marauding bands of soldiers raping and pillaging whole cities is certainly barbaric, but keeping extensive lists of all the people you have shipped off to camps in order to execute in the most efficient and systematic way possible is something else entirely.

 

[still fly]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Also because the Jews make sure we never forget

 

[Precious Roy]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Japan nuked say, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, would people be sitting around today saying, "well, it was justified, we have to thank the Japanese for doing what was needed to end the war"?

 

[Byron The Bulb]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

Also because the Jews make sure we never forget

Isn't it ironic that after being genocided by the Nazis the Jews turned around and started genociding the Palestinians? Think about it.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Japan nuked say, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, would people be sitting around today saying, "well, it was justified, we have to thank the Japanese for doing what was needed to end the war"?

If the alternative was losing 90%+ of the male population and having President Tojo in the White House, then yes.

 

[Jingus]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The reason the Holocaust sticks in the collective unconscious more than the Japanese war crimes or Stalin's purges is that it was a fully "modern," industrialized genocide that was executed following the logic of rational organization. Marauding bands of soldiers raping and pillaging whole cities is certainly barbaric, but keeping extensive lists of all the people you have shipped off to camps in order to execute in the most efficient and systematic way possible is something else entirely.

Also, the racist nature of the story makes it fit easily into a compelling story. "The most persecuted group in the history of humanity faces their very worst persecution ever." Thus the 6 million Jews get much more hindsight attention than the 8 million non-Jews killed in the Holocaust. Being in one homogenous ethnic group makes it easier to make historical blurbs about that hideous experience. Like I said, how many Holocaust movies have you ever seen which weren't about Jewish victims, despite them being a minority of the overall number of people who were forced to inhale Zyklon B and then burned in ovens? I agree that it's absolutely imperative that we Never Forget, but that statement is a bit disingenuous since we already have forgotten many others.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Japan nuked say, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, would people be sitting around today saying, "well, it was justified, we have to thank the Japanese for doing what was needed to end the war"?

Had the US attacked Japan and then lost battle after battle to a defiant Japanese army, but the US still insisted we fight on, fully knowing that inch by inch, mile by by mile, street by street, house by house would be a battle and lives would be lost and ultimately the US would lose but still would have rather lose the war via kill every man attrition vs admitting defeat and signing treaties - then yeah we might have to see the justification.
--------
Had America won the war via land invasion and air attacks taking place between the summer of 45 til maybe 1948 or so, would you view the conclusion more favorably? What if you were Truman, and your advisers were telling you to expect a million or more Troop deaths if such a strategy would be engaged vs nuking 2 cities that the Japanese had been forewarned to abandon because the US was about to unleash indescribable ruin to them to end the war within weeks and not years?

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

The reason the Holocaust sticks in the collective unconscious more than the Japanese war crimes or Stalin's purges is that it was a fully "modern," industrialized genocide that was executed following the logic of rational organization. Marauding bands of soldiers raping and pillaging whole cities is certainly barbaric, but keeping extensive lists of all the people you have shipped off to camps in order to execute in the most efficient and systematic way possible is something else entirely.

Also History is written by the winners. Had The British defeated the Revolutionary uprising America might have this as a Wiki entry:

America is a British territory encompassing the upper east coast of North America. It is located north of the Empire of Mexico and South eastern of the French ruled lands of Canada.

Instead Wiki states:

Spoiler

AMERICA FUCK YEAH~!

 

[BruiserBrody]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

It also must be noted RE: nuclear usage in WW2 that the US was suffering financially due to the high costs of war and another several years of battle may not have been feasible both due to man power, morale and monetary considerations.

 

[AA484]

Nuking the god damn japs. Cool or not cool?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Japan nuked say, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, would people be sitting around today saying, "well, it was justified, we have to thank the Japanese for doing what was needed to end the war"?

I don't recall us sneak-attacking any of their bases in peace time.