WWF: Hulkamania era (1984-`1992)

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Well I bet ‘88 Jake Vs Hammer kept a methodical pace.

 

[strummer]

I assume that was during the time after Craig DeGeorge left and before Sean Mooney showed up as Gene was hosting the event center. Don't really recall him doing that in 88.

 

[Valeyard]

Jake and Harley would've been a lot of fun. Even busted up Harley was great and might be the only person who could really gel with Jake.

We needed Jake and Hercules vs Brain Busters, too.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Well I bet ‘88 Jake Vs Hammer kept a methodical pace.

There's also a SNME bout.

 

[909]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1647659673502220291

 

[Valeyard]

And Owen had the balls to say he was the Black Hart.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

When Bret Hart called himself the Robert DeNiro of wrestling, it had nothing to do with their abilities in their respective fields.

 

[Valeyard]

I like him saying he's De Niro only because WCW was his Fockers

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

His 2010s WWE run is Dirty Grandpa?

 

[Valeyard]

Pretty much.

The de-aging into an FTR is his Irishman.

 

[BruiserBrody]

The ending here would have cost me a lot of money if we were doing Vegas prop bets.

 

[Valeyard]

This is the problem with WWF Flair in a nutshell, I think. He's the Nature Boy but everyone heel contemporary was almost the total opposite style of character. However it's my favorite run of Flair's career and Jake is the greatest heel of all time so it isn't exactly like I'm genuinely complaining.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I feel like things would have turned out so much better for everyone if Ric Flair had jumped to WWF a year earlier (let alone at the height of his career in the '80s). I feel like the Black Scorpion angle and LOL Flair uses chicanery to go over Sting again could be considered the "Jump the shark" moment for Flair. Him joining WWF in the Summer of '91 really feels like two sinking ships latching onto each other somehow.

Now I'd get Brodesplained about how Vince would've never gone for a Flair Vs Hogan WrestleMania event but having Flair on WrestleMania VII is some capacity definitely would have strongly helped that show.

And if Flair jumped in late summer of 1988 when WWF was still at the height of its powers, forget about it. I doubt WCW/JCP would even make it to the '90s if that happens, which sets off a whole number of "What if?" scenarios.

 

[BruiserBrody]

I feel like things would have turned out so much better for everyone if Ric Flair had jumped to WWF a year earlier (let alone at the height of his career in the '80s). I feel like the Black Scorpion angle and LOL Flair uses chicanery to go over Sting again could be considered the "Jump the shark" moment for Flair. Him joining WWF in the Summer of '91 really feels like two sinking ships latching onto each other somehow.

Now I'd get Brodesplained about how Vince would've never gone for a Flair Vs Hogan WrestleMania event but having Flair on WrestleMania VII is some capacity definitely would have strongly helped that show.

And if Flair jumped in late summer of 1988 when WWF was still at the height of its powers, forget about it. I doubt WCW/JCP would even make it to the '90s if that happens, which sets off a whole number of "What if?" scenarios.

I'll play devil's advocate and say getting Flair out of the NWA opens up a new beginning and yes you lose an absolute stud and crowd favorite, but now WCW can potentially grow with Sting/Luger/Windham/Muta/Pillman in 89 w/o a booker who was only half hearted into it.
Plus Flair doesn't get the flack others do for his playing politics and fucking up plans, with the kicker being Flair didn't draw shit in 89-91. Would the bottom fall out without him or is a WCW that isn't looking to book a Horsemen revival every six months more creatively open?
With top heel spots open, maybe TSM favorite SID comes in the summer of 89 and gets a god push instead of a tag team?

--
RE: WM 7 - Steamboat is on the roster by that point. You could have a classic battle if they would be allowed to build it for a bit to give the WWF fans a reason to care.

A Summerslam 88 Flair is dropped into an odd spot as Hogan/Savage is going to happen, so Flair may have to tread water for a bit until they can convince Piper to come back and he and Flair can kick off a feud after Mania 5.
Flair could get slotted into the fall of 88 Savage house show opponents, but you'd have to have schmozz finishes or something. Then Survivor Series is messy as you have to decide if Flair goes up against the Mega Powers team, or if he goes lower in the pecking order and gets stuck facing Warrior/Duggan/Jake whoever. Then at the Rumble Flair either faces Savage, or goes in the Rumble and wins it, giving him some momentum to whine about as Macho turns heel. Then Hogan/Savage face off for months and months, so Flair is again stuck in the 1A heel spot.
I don't feel there's a scenario where Vince keeps Macho face to work Flair at 5 and gives Hogan the Bossman or something. The Hogan train was due to be refueled for another run.

 

[Valeyard]

WCW without Flair:

1988, they struggle for at least a couple years. Dusty probably stays for a little longer, as do the Busters, which I see Dusty trying to make Tully the new guy. It's transparent but he's someone Dusty trusts enough and if he collapses he can just transition back to either himself or, more importantly, Luger. Otherwise it doesn't feel totally unreasonable to bring in Gilbert or Lawler to give them a shot. Maybe the final destruction of the AWA with Larry or Slaughter or something. Top heels would look like the remaining Horsemen, Muta, and Funk while Luger, Steamboat, Sting, and Nikita on the face end. Skyscrapers get their due after some awesome matches with the RNR and probably wind up doing a quiet split, Powers of Pain style. Doom/Skyscrapers becomes a money hoss fight but there's no way either or both don't jump to the WWF first chance. Sting won't break out nearly as fast but will probably get Luger's midcard run, ending with him being huge and their Warrior. If the chain command still has Herd and Watts, it all doesn't matter. Unless you bring Watts in right after Flair leaves while there's still a chance of his style working well enough. Pillman's push probably goes similarly to how it would, maybe leading to him and Zenk teaming up early for some swank Midnights matches. Ideally as well Heyman would start to get a little more influence during the flux, as well. Flair likely returns when his deal is up anyway, meaning he'd get a depleted and unhappy roster in 1991 or so and be jerked around and basically redo a lot of what he'd have missed. He also probably doesn't get as behind Sting after a run where he'd have to have worked Warrior and judge him a little harsher for unfair reasons.

WWF with Flair:

Only call that makes any sense is calling an immediate audible and having him get Rude's spot with Jake and moving Rude to Warrior sooner. Pair Flair and Heenan, it's an easier transition. Otherwise, you put him with Warrior or Beefcake, and while both are not ideal they were both solid upper carders. There is no way to avoid having him interact with the Mega Powers but it might need to be tried solely because he would throw a huge wrench in that story. Flair is literally the perfect enemy for both of them and could take a lot of heat from them as a result.* Hogan/Flair should be Wrestlemania 6 and Savage/Warrior should be just behind it, ideally meaning the next year actually sells out the Colisseum for Hogan/Warrior. Flair then can do shit with Bossman or something until he leaves, like Rude insulted his momma but Flair fucked her or something. The problem is that Flair could completely overshadow Rude, Perfect, and Dibiase right out of the gate, and while those dudes as Heenan's Horsemen sounds awesome I don't know if it would help or hurt those involved. When the WCW roster raid kicks off and guys like the Skyscrapers, LOD, and maybe Windham jump it just takes up more spots. Flair would jump back like he did in reality, but given how different the dynamics would be vs 1992 I could see him taking a few people with him just based on how things are. Harts, Rockers, Martel-- workrate guys who weren't as appreciated. Flair politically might not gel with 80s Hogan for long and I don't trust Hogan to not fuck him over. Guys like that leaving before the impending steroid problems, leaving most of the roster giant roid monkeys and not normal looking guys, makes the WWF look worse.

*Flair coming out at Wrestlemania and escorting Liz away during the final stretch of the match would've ruled though.

 

[BruiserBrody]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1648371210667933701

Ted has to be cautious that Virgil isn't going to get his payback for Dibiase leaving the NWO for the Steiners.

 

[Valeyard]

I never took Virgil seriously for the simple reason his head was so tiny Dibiase was always able to palm it. Like it looked so stupid, this regular-sized guy like Dibiase able to just smother the guy who was his former bodyguard just because Virgil's head was smaller than his hands.

Summerslam is still really good, though.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Interesting(?) little nugget: The Wrestling History Grenade podcast pointed out that when the Rockers signed in May 87 for a half a second, Roma and Powers (teaming but not official Stallions) were split at the next TV to do jobs.
The odd part of that to me is that they stuck Roma in a tag match squash anyway, so why not just have Powers there? They both did jobs on the same TV anyway.

 

[Valeyard]

They lowkey seemed to want to push Powers in some form for a few years, but nothing tangible. Like the vibe was always that he was higher than those in his position but never actually explaining why. Or maybe he was just face Mike Sharpe and they didn't want to hurt him that much whereas Roma is Roma.

 

[BruiserBrody]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1650103369434791937

Why does everything about Dusty make me smile?

 

[alfdogg]

I've long felt that Paul Roma was underrated. I'm guessing the mic skills were lacking or something because I thought he had everything else to be a totally acceptable pushed heel. Intensity, believable offense, great athleticism and a good look. Like he could have been built as an early IC challenger for Bret with little problem. I know many have said his attitude held him back but it's not like the WWF never pushed guys who had bad attitudes. That said he would have been totally dead in the water once Shawn went heel.

 

[OG]

Roma had a couple of decent runs in his career. I quite liked the Pretty Wonderful tag team with him and Orndorff. Absolute heat magnets.

 

[Valeyard]

Power And Glory should have been special. Watching them kill the Rockers feels like a big moment but then nothing.

They had the gayest Coliseum Video profile, too, and it was wonderful.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I think this goes back to my theory that LoD ruined the WWF Tag Team division. No team, in kayfabe, seemed like they could match up with them so they had to plow through the division and were left with facing teams made up of paired together singles wrestlers.

If LoD never makes the jump to WWF, I almost guarantee Power & Glory would have won the titles at some point.

 

[Valeyard]

It makes Vince's inability to book LOD properly more baffling.

I wonder how heel LOD would've worked. I think mileage was there for some LOD/Hogan-Warrior stuff until one of the facepaint guys wrecklessly injures another facepaint guy and Hogan goes over all of them.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

It’s too bad that Andre was so shot in ‘90 cause Colossal Connection is one of the only WWF tag teams of that era I can see squaring up with LOD.

Other is Demolition and we all know how that turned out. Damn that bad seafood Bill Eadie ate in Japan.

 

[SuperMachine#1]

@Spring King Kamala I loved that All Summit show in Japan right after Wrestlemainia 6 with matches like Jake vs Bossman, Boxcar Valentine vs Kabuki and Demolition vs Andre and Baba. That seem like a cool show at the time.

 

[BruiserBrody]

More fun from the Wrestling history grenade podcast: Chavo Classic was signed in the summer of 87. The night of his debut was the same night WWF did their first test for hard drugs. Chavo, Brian Blair and Jake the Snake all popped for coke.
Chavo works a few dates, but his run is over before it starts.

I wonder if he and Tito would be destined to be paired to "replace" the Rockers slot. WWF was using Steve Gatorwolf and other jobbers to replace the Rockers slots on cards.

Meltz also says Hogan vs Andre was planned for the Toronto Stadium show in Aug, but Andre's back is still knackered. I'd be a little surprised if Vince didn't plan a PPV for that. The summer of 87 is a bit of a mess otherwise, so a "Summerslam" event would be harder to draw without a hot main event.

 

[BruiserBrody]

I think this goes back to my theory that LoD ruined the WWF Tag Team division. No team, in kayfabe, seemed like they could match up with them so they had to plow through the division and were left with facing teams made up of paired together singles wrestlers.

If LoD never makes the jump to WWF, I almost guarantee Power & Glory would have won the titles at some point.

Aren't all tag teams made up of singles guys? Other than the Rougeaus and Sheepwackers, the 80s tag roster was just that.
The exception to the rule is the Nasty Boys, who broke in as JTTS together in 86.

WCW wasn't spitting out too many teams to steal and the AWA's pickings were either signed (Bad Company/Beverlys) or used as prelims (Ricky Rice/John Paul)
The Fabs had some revival matches in Memphis and what not, but Vince signed Kiern to be Skinner.
Moondogs revival?
Who else is floating around in 91/92? Proto Pitbulls were WWF jobbers. Harris Boys might have broken in by now?

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I feel like tag teams work best as lifers or failing/unproven singles acts joined together for a boost (IE Hart Foundation, New Age Outlaws). Money Inc and Natural Disasters were all established singles acts that would've been fine on their own (well except maybe your friend Uncle Fred, @BruiserBrody ).