wikileaks

[Sex Machine Gun]

They aren't terrorists, but it is criminal activity. I wish it wasn't, but it is.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

The Denial of Services attacks is terrorism on both sides of the coin. Neither side deserves much sympathy and everyone involved is acting like a twat.

 

[SpiderPoetV3]

I use the term 'terrorism' because some of what they are doing and promoting is to directly inspire fear of opposing them. Not out of 9/11 paranoia. I mean it functionally. They are promoting people hurting people, and using documents that might hurt others, to inspire fear of trying to prosecute them.

 

[snuffbox]

I understand the talking points about it. But nobody has been harmed via wikileaks' actions. Why would you get upset about politicians being embarrassed or corporate/militarist actions being revealed?

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Because it doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's no predicting what kind of effect the documents will have, particularly the stuff he's using as blackmail.

 

[snuffbox]

We have no idea what he's using as blackmail.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Thus why we can't predict it's effect.

 

[Sex Machine Gun]

All any of the State cables are saying is what we say publicly anyway. Sure, the personality profiles of different world leaders might not reach a microphone under normal circumstances, but other than those there's nothing much that can hurt us. The delivery of their intent leaves a lot to be desired, that's all. They've gone the "be afraid of us" route rather than "this is why we do what we do" route. I understand fearmongering is a pretty effective tactic (especially when dealing with national security issues), but there's gotta be a better way especially when most of their stuff is coming from third parties.

What bugs me most has nothing to do with anything they've released. What bugs me the most is reneging on their pledge to fund PFC Manning's defense. A gesture like that could reveal their intent far more than statements from shadowy hacker groups or their comic book ringleader.

 

[Jingus]

I'd say the credit-company attacks count as terrorism. The difference is one of motivation. They're not done for any purpose of any measurable concrete gain. Although the hackers would claim otherwise, it's not done in defense of helpless people who are being oppressed. (Those who are being fucked up the ass with ever-increasing fees and interest rates might disagree, but nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to sign up for a credit card.) It's being done solely to advance the cause of an idealogical agenda, one which is illegal and largely unpopular.

The legality issue is what makes the attacks on Wikileaks somehwat murky. Personally, I'm mostly a supporter of Assange. He's uncovered plenty of dirty laundry which needed to be aired. But he also operates blatantly outside the law. He receives property which he knows is stolen, and passes it on. That makes him awfully vulnerable to most opposition.

 

[SpiderPoetV3]

I'm not sure that our allies in the middle east who had the cover of secrecy to save face while being positive with us, suddenly not having that counts as 'no one being hurt'. It's surely going to hurt us diplomatically in a touchy region for a long, long time. Those interactions could have been building towards partnership and peace if given the opportunity to pan out.

And yes, that SHOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRET. Do you think the Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved because everybody sat around Kennedy's table talking favorably about the fucking Russians and Cuba? They had to figure shit out, their diplomats on the ground had to figure shit out and some of it had to happen off the grid. Secrecy and diplomacy need one another to get things done and for honest assessment by those in the thick of it at the time.

Why people don't get that, I don't know.

 

[Sex Machine Gun]

Our allies in the Middle East will tongue our assholes and then jam a ribbed aluminum baseball bat in there just as we're about to cum. If a bunch of their cables were leaked, savage words would surely be used regarding Western diplomats. Ours just showed we said the same stuff in secret that we said in public. There's really nothing here that could piss anyone off, even if it should have been kept under wraps.

If anything, the State and Defense departments should be more worried about things that WILL disrupt operations like the Squad o' Psychopaths out of Fort Lewis that were killing civilians for sport and making necklaces out of ears, or the Solider who shot a prisoner in his cell. BUT THOSE WERE MANLY THINGS TO DO LET'S ALL KILL THE COMPUTER DORK COWARDS

The greatest that this is inconveniencing the boots on the ground is that you can no longer save anything off our computers with a CD or thumb drive. Our unit found some sweet-ass Taliban propaganda videos that I wanted to bring home to show people (as opposed to the snippets you get on the news without music), but nooooooo.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

There's a lot of stuff that isn't said publicly in the dispatches that will piss the average joe off even if the leaders knew about it.

Plus their is stuff like this:

The diplomatic cables reveal the US army Patriot missiles, deployed in north-eastern Poland in early 2010, were neither operational nor armed with missiles and their value was purely symbolic. The Polish government however believed that the US Patriot battery had boosted Polish air defences.[151] The February 2009 cable from Victor Ashe, the US ambassador in Warsaw, to Washington reveales that the Poles have not been told that the battery would rotate without actual missiles and that the Polish officials expectations were naive.

I'd imagine that won't go over with the Polish government much less the general public. It may not be a big deal on it's own but it's part of a larger package of shady dealings. Most of the shady stuff people already "knew" about in the sense we assumed it went on but actually have it right out confirmed is a major deal.

I don't think the real effect of these cables isn't going to be some huge thing but a lot of little things that will make foreign relations very difficult for years to come.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Also there's a lot of stuff that will hurt other countries directly like the stuff about arms deals and support of rebel forces and such. It doesn't put american lives in danger now but it could have a serious effect on America's allies and even if it only causes a bit of a scandal will still hurt the trust between the nations.

 

[Sex Machine Gun]

I just don't see, especially given the last 65 years of American foreign policy, anything that's surprising. I would check out more than I did the other day, but the site is naturally blocked here now under the assumption that lots of Soldiers read this stuff (they don't). The Poland thing is pretty goddamn funny though. Does the meme change now to "YOU FORGOT MISSILES?"

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

I don't know if you can look at wikipedia but this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_United_States_diplomatic_cables_leak sums up a lot of the major stuff.

The missile thing is funny but probably not to the Poles.

There isn't anything that is too surprising but having it confirmed so resoundingly makes it mean more. Especially since it's all coming out in a big rush. If it was one thing getting busted it'd be business as usual.

 

[Jingus]

Actually, those Patriot systems might be just as effective without the missiles. I just read recently that in the first Gulf War, the much-ballyhooed SCUDbuster was a complete failure. And when I say complete, I mean as in "they didn't shoot down one enemy missile". The military was apparently very intent on phrasing all their reports that the Patriots "intercepted" the Scuds, and neglected to inform anyone that "crossing flight paths and getting one kinda near the other" counted as an official interception.

 

[Jingus]

Also: a truly depressing number of political pundits are demanding that Assange be jailed for "treason". Um. What. Even if you think he deserves the harshest penality, get out a god-damned dictionary and learn what the word means. You can't be a traitor to a country you never belonged to in the first place.

 

[Dobbs3K]

That's what I'm saying. Just because you think American Exceptionalism is supercool or that Julian Assange is a movie villain doesn't turn computer hacking into terrorism.

"American Exceptionalism" apparently equals anything any other country in the world would do that doesn't jive with your libertarian world view.

 

[SpiderPoetV3]

I'm glad the awful stuff is seeing the light of day, but I'd rather see it done without people who want to use fear to protect themselves for it. There's a big difference between people who are bravely willing to face the consequences of bringing evil to light and what Assange and his supporters are doing. Via the big encrypted file, he's tried to imply that he can hurt American institutions further if they dare touch him, and Anonymous is definitely trying to use fear to overrun the rights of companies to disassociate themselves from WikiLeaks, and to punish people who publicly speak against them.

There's nothing noble in that.

 

[NoCalMike]

Maybe it's the american public that is learning about it's own government that they want stopped. I mean if you look at the international news organizations, they are a lot more skeptical and investigation-based than our media in challenging their politicians and government policy.

If you compare the population in general of this country to many european counties, it is our society that seems to be the most mis-informed and ignorant when it comes to politics in general. I mean for christ's sake, we had people showing up to rallies because they though Obama was a Kenyan Muslim Socialist, and it wasn't "just a few bad apples" Our populace seems to be mostly tuned out to the actual issues and discourse, and more prone to soundbytes they hear by a multimillionaire on the radio.

Also, I find it highly comical that the right-wing media and Palin types are calling for the guy's murder and/or jailing under treason, but where the hell was this vigor and vitriol when it came to Valerie Plame being outed as a covert op in the CIA by their pals as a measure of political revenge against Joe Wilson....?

 

[Sex Machine Gun]

She was kinda hot for a middle-aged woman and the Right was championing that cause. Maybe that's why.

 

[SpiderPoetV3]

I will point out that I think trying Assange for treason or anything like that is ridiculous. He's not a U.S. Citizen. I'm not sure I buy that WikiLeaks deserves the same protections as an American newspaper, though. Somewhere in the middle, I believe the way they've received and handled these documents is criminal, even if it can only be proved as malicious use. That may not be prosecutable, I don't know. They can probably eek by. Though Manning is toast.

But the Anon people need to be identified and charged for their stunts. I know that will never, ever happen, but I abhor bullies and people who use fear.

 

[Sex Machine Gun]

According to a story in Stars and Stripes about the ban on removable memory I mentioned a few posts back, Manning used CDs that were labeled as Lady Gaga albums to get stuff off of computers. This makes me happy.

 

[Czech]

Lady Gaga feat. Beyonce as the soundtrack to bringing down the government from within is pretty surreal and badass. I can't wait until Aaron Sorkin makes a movie about it.

 

[muzzington]

The stuff being released regarding Australia won't help things for us any.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technology/security/rudd-the-butt-of-wikileaks-expos-20101205-18lf2.html

Kevin Rudd warned Hillary Clinton to be prepared to use force against China ''if everything goes wrong'', an explosive WikiLeaks cable has revealed.

Mr Rudd also told Mrs Clinton during a meeting in Washington on March 24 last year that China was ''paranoid'' about Taiwan and Tibet and that his ambitious plan for an Asia-Pacific community was intended to blunt Chinese influence.

It also reveals Mr Rudd offered Australian special forces to fight inside Pakistan once an agreement could be struck with Islamabad.

The cable details a 75-minute lunch Mr Rudd held as prime minister with Mrs Clinton soon after she was appointed US Secretary of State.

Signed ''Clinton'' and classified ''confidential'', it is the first of the WikiLeaks cables that includes a substantive report on Australia.

The unprecedented disclosure of such a frank exchange between political leaders is bound to complicate Australia's ties in the region, especially with Beijing.

At the lunch Mrs Clinton confided to Mr Rudd America's fears about China's rapid rise and Beijing's multibillion-dollar store of US debt. She asked: ''How do you deal toughly with your banker?''

In a wide-ranging conversation Mr Rudd:

Described himself as ''a brutal realist on China'' and said Australian intelligence agencies closely watched its military expansion.

Said the goal must be to integrate China into the international community, ''while also preparing to deploy force if everything goes wrong''.

Characterised Chinese leaders as ''sub-rational and deeply emotional'' about Taiwan.

Said the planned build-up of Australia's navy was ''a response to China's growing ability to project force''.

Sought Mrs Clinton's advice on dealing with the Russian President, Dmitry Medvedev, and Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin, whom she labelled the ''behind-the-scenes puppeteer''.

Mr Rudd agreed any success in Afghanistan would unravel if Pakistan fell apart - and that Islamabad must be turned away from its ''obsessive focus'' on India. He also discussed ways to bring China to the table in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The disclosures in the cable, posted online by the British newspaper The Guardian, will complicate Mr Rudd's already testy personal links with China after his reported reference to Chinese negotiators as ''rat f---ers'' during the Copenhagen climate change conference.

Mr Rudd gave Mrs Clinton a candid assessment of the Chinese leadership, drawing a disparaging contrast between the President, Hu Jintao, with his predecessor, saying Mr Hu ''is no Jiang Zemin''.

Mr Rudd said no one person dominated China's opaque leadership circle but the Vice-President, Xi Jinping, might use family ties to the military to rise to the top.

Mr Rudd said he had urged China to strike a deal with the Dalai Lama for autonomy in Tibet and while he saw little prospect of success, he asked Mrs Clinton to have ''a quiet conversation'' to push the idea with Beijing's leaders.

On his plan for an ''Asia-Pacific community'', Mr Rudd said the goal was to curb China's dominance. He wanted to ensure this did not result in ''an Asia without the United States''.

Mrs Clinton has since publicly praised Mr Rudd for his advice on China and credited him for the US decision this year to join the East Asia Summit.

Mr Rudd is in the Middle East and a spokeswoman said he did not have any comment on the release of the cable.

The Attorney-General, Robert McClelland, declined to answer questions on any damage to Australia's ties with China or the role of Australian special forces in Pakistan arising from the revelations in the cable.

In a statement issued by a spokesman he said: ''The government has made it clear it has no intention to provide commentary on the content of US classified documents.''

In the cable, Mr Rudd appears eager to impress on Mrs Clinton his knowledge of international affairs, promising to send her copies of his speech in April 2008 at Peking University and a draft journal article on his Asia-Pacific community plan.

 

[AA484]

For all who are proclaiming that the government can't try Assange for treason because he's not a citizen... well, they can. The Espionage Act of 1917, and I just recently learned this, set the precedent for trying non-American citizens for disclosing classified information to countries hostile to America. Apparently a German fella by the name of Alfred Zehe was jailed in 1983 and his "non-American" themed defense was ultimately shot down in court.

Still doesn't mean it makes sense. If they really wanted to get rid of him, they should just do like the Soviets did in the 30's and 40's: ship him off to a gulag never to be seen again and then feign ignorance when asked of his whereabouts.

 

[Haws Bah Gawd]

Assange was released on bond this afternoon.

 

[alkeiper]

For all who are proclaiming that the government can't try Assange for treason because he's not a citizen... well, they can. The Espionage Act of 1917, and I just recently learned this, set the precedent for trying non-American citizens for disclosing classified information to countries hostile to America. Apparently a German fella by the name of Alfred Zehe was jailed in 1983 and his "non-American" themed defense was ultimately shot down in court.

Still doesn't mean it makes sense. If they really wanted to get rid of him, they should just do like the Soviets did in the 30's and 40's: ship him off to a gulag never to be seen again and then feign ignorance when asked of his whereabouts.

Zehe was charged for espionage, not treason.

 

[AA484]

For all who are proclaiming that the government can't try Assange for treason because he's not a citizen... well, they can. The Espionage Act of 1917, and I just recently learned this, set the precedent for trying non-American citizens for disclosing classified information to countries hostile to America. Apparently a German fella by the name of Alfred Zehe was jailed in 1983 and his "non-American" themed defense was ultimately shot down in court.

Still doesn't mean it makes sense. If they really wanted to get rid of him, they should just do like the Soviets did in the 30's and 40's: ship him off to a gulag never to be seen again and then feign ignorance when asked of his whereabouts.

Zehe was charged for espionage, not treason.

Well, yeah, I'm sorry for not clarifying enough, but it was implied.

 

[devo]

A recent WikiLeaks release details another BP oil rig debacle in Azerbaijan that came very close to being just as disastrous as the one in the gulf. What's more, the information released suggests that bad cement work - the suspected cause of the gulf disaster - was the cause of the Azerbaijan leak.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20101219/wl_time/08599203783000