Dandy
Posts: 3,237
And it is so much worse that it has been going on forever and progress is just starting to be made.
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Hollywood Under Fire For Sexual Assault
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CookieMueller said:
He didn't hold her head at his crotch, she went down on him twice according to her account. The story seems like one of those more of somebody that's completely socially retarded than someone who had any intention of making a person uncomfortable. Considering how many socially retarded people exist, it is probably necessary to just straight out say no. She told him to slow down and for a lot of people that doesn't mean no. For the record the words "no" and "stop" are at no point quoted in that article. Obviously I feel bad for her because this isn't what she wanted, but this isn't a cut and dry situation. She met a regular guy who happens to be famous and regular guys can be pretty creepy when a woman gets into their apartment and gives them a blowjob.
I don't see why he needed to be put on blast. I wonder how people would feel if their stories of rejection were aired out like that, because it's pretty likely a lot of them sound similar to this. It's not that I disbelieve her story in any way, but it's obviously one sided. His response speaks for itself I think, that he thought something else was happening, and that often happens between two people in any situation.
I also question why this story was published on this site instead of another more reputable site, and I can only assume that because the shades of grey are so large here that they wouldn't have published it somewhere else. My personal opinion is that she was expecting something much more from Aziz and didn't get it. I'm gonna be careful with what I say here, but regardless it's going to sound like slut shaming. If you look at Aziz there is no way someone's gonna abandon their date, follow him around like that, go into his apartment after a first date, or hang around his apartment unless he's famous. She clearly did want something from him, the same way he wanted something from her, and neither of them got it. That being said I have never had it happen to me where I was invited into someone's apartment or invited someone into my apartment after the first date and we went our separate ways without boning.
Unfortunately everyone has regrets about sexual experiences and that isn't exclusive to these kinds of situations. There are stories that anyone could tell which would probably sound as bad as this does. I do however question why Aziz would be this interested in someone much younger than him and I think that's probably the most alarming thing about the situation. Because, even though I feel that he's socially retarded (which is another kettle of fish), chasing around a woman that much younger than him is always going to feel predatory to me.
Unfortunately everyone has regrets about sexual experiences and that isn't exclusive to these kinds of situations. There are stories that anyone could tell which would probably sound as bad as this does. I do however question why Aziz would be this interested in someone much younger than him and I think that's probably the most alarming thing about the situation. Because, even though I feel that he's socially retarded (which is another kettle of fish), chasing around a woman that much younger than him is always going to feel predatory to me.
Big Beard Booty Daddy
Canadian Destroyer213
Yeah, this seems to be a story that a lot of people are questioning. I have a lot of friends, male and female, who have been for the women coming out, but for the most part, they've had the same reaction as 909.
CookieMueller
Integral Poster
I feel that her story is fairly complete, because if she was going to lie she could have added like 2 more sentences and made it WAY WORSE for him. Instead she told the story in a way that she has to know opens herself for shame and ridicule. So I believe her story to be totally accurate.
I guess the division of how people react to it lies in whether or not they've been in that situation. On either side. Guys who have been in his shoes and let the girl walk away because she didn't seem into it are probably more on her side and guys who haven't had that decision to make probably don't see it as much of a problem. Girls who haven't been in her shoes are probably more likely to say "oh i woulda left!" and girls who have been in her spot probably fall more on my side of the argument which is that she was probably young, scared and confused (and adding alcohol into the scenario compacts all of this infinitely).
Bottom line is that this story is probably the most important one to come out because it sheds the most light on what's really going on. It's easy to look at a rape or even on work-related harassment and shut the book on that. It's much more difficult to see this story as black and white and that's difficult because this is happening every single day. Most women won't be raped in their life. Most men will never even have rape cross their minds as an action they are tempted to commit. But this story? Every single day these scenarios play out. I guess I hope some guys read this and can put themselves in a woman's shoes but I know that's not how the internet works in general.
I guess the division of how people react to it lies in whether or not they've been in that situation. On either side. Guys who have been in his shoes and let the girl walk away because she didn't seem into it are probably more on her side and guys who haven't had that decision to make probably don't see it as much of a problem. Girls who haven't been in her shoes are probably more likely to say "oh i woulda left!" and girls who have been in her spot probably fall more on my side of the argument which is that she was probably young, scared and confused (and adding alcohol into the scenario compacts all of this infinitely).
Bottom line is that this story is probably the most important one to come out because it sheds the most light on what's really going on. It's easy to look at a rape or even on work-related harassment and shut the book on that. It's much more difficult to see this story as black and white and that's difficult because this is happening every single day. Most women won't be raped in their life. Most men will never even have rape cross their minds as an action they are tempted to commit. But this story? Every single day these scenarios play out. I guess I hope some guys read this and can put themselves in a woman's shoes but I know that's not how the internet works in general.
The story isn't even remotely in question to me, it is that I have a general idea of his version and it is hard to find too much fault in it. The fingers in the mouth thing is really fucking gross though. She gave him head twice and he thought she was playing games. He obviously had no intention of raping or assaulting her, but he assumed like all guys do, that because she went up there and didn't leave or tell him he was being a creep/stop/no, that she was there to have sex with him eventually. If he wanted to rape or assault her, or jack off in front of her like other creeps named in this thread, he could have done that and gotten away with it because that's what happens.
Her version obviously is that he was being a creep the whole time (which I don't disagree with) and that even though she gave him head it was irrelevant, she didn't want to have sex with him. Like I said some people are retarded enough that they need to be put in check and clearly Aziz Ansari is one of these people.
Now that all being said if someone else says this happened to them too after this then his side comes massively into question because once being told he should know better. Plus, everyone should be more aware of these situations, which is what we're all learning now. I'm certainly not going to say he should have his stuff cancelled and be humiliated over something like this as it's more a case of miscommunication and lack of understanding than anything else. I feel bad for both of them at this point as the cultural implications of this story will probably destroy his personal life. I have no idea how you face your culturally conservative parents when something like this happens. I also feel that a story like this one that doesn't feature a rape allegation needs to be inclusive of the man's experience too, especially considering that the original publication says that he apologized the next day immediately upon being told there was a problem. Time will tell if he's merely a pervert or if this was a misunderstanding, because with this kind of scrutiny something else will definitely be published if it exists.
Her version obviously is that he was being a creep the whole time (which I don't disagree with) and that even though she gave him head it was irrelevant, she didn't want to have sex with him. Like I said some people are retarded enough that they need to be put in check and clearly Aziz Ansari is one of these people.
Now that all being said if someone else says this happened to them too after this then his side comes massively into question because once being told he should know better. Plus, everyone should be more aware of these situations, which is what we're all learning now. I'm certainly not going to say he should have his stuff cancelled and be humiliated over something like this as it's more a case of miscommunication and lack of understanding than anything else. I feel bad for both of them at this point as the cultural implications of this story will probably destroy his personal life. I have no idea how you face your culturally conservative parents when something like this happens. I also feel that a story like this one that doesn't feature a rape allegation needs to be inclusive of the man's experience too, especially considering that the original publication says that he apologized the next day immediately upon being told there was a problem. Time will tell if he's merely a pervert or if this was a misunderstanding, because with this kind of scrutiny something else will definitely be published if it exists.
CookieMueller
Integral Poster
I guess I'm mostly disgusted by people calling her into question. "Why didn't she name herself???" Well gee, I guess we see why now. Again, it's not a cut-and-dry story for most people and it seems a lot of people are totally shaming her. I give her kudos for not only having the courage to tell her story at all, but also for not changing the story to make it more kind to herself. She didn't make him into a monster, if anything he's become the first man to have a story like this come out where the majority is on his side. "Well she didn't SAY no" is basically the byline of this story.
Again, I just hope the takeaway is that more men will care and understand, exhibit empathy. Read the cues and say "hey do you want to do this?" instead of what I've had a lot of experiences of in my life which is the man becoming a brick wall and resorting to whining for something he thinks he is owed. There have been men that I've gone on dates with and it isn't a yes or no for me. I'm still deciding whether I want to do anything sexual and as that's going on in my (possibly intoxicated) head I also have him drooling all over me begging. Like most things in life it's not black and white. It's not rape but it's also not acceptable.
I don't want Aziz to be Weinsteined. It's not what he deserves, especially if he's willing to open up and listen. It's also not a Franco situation where these are accusations that have dogged him for years from multiple women. But I also don't want this woman to feel shamed, nor other women that have had similar situations to feel shamed into silence.
Again, I just hope the takeaway is that more men will care and understand, exhibit empathy. Read the cues and say "hey do you want to do this?" instead of what I've had a lot of experiences of in my life which is the man becoming a brick wall and resorting to whining for something he thinks he is owed. There have been men that I've gone on dates with and it isn't a yes or no for me. I'm still deciding whether I want to do anything sexual and as that's going on in my (possibly intoxicated) head I also have him drooling all over me begging. Like most things in life it's not black and white. It's not rape but it's also not acceptable.
I don't want Aziz to be Weinsteined. It's not what he deserves, especially if he's willing to open up and listen. It's also not a Franco situation where these are accusations that have dogged him for years from multiple women. But I also don't want this woman to feel shamed, nor other women that have had similar situations to feel shamed into silence.
It's strange.
As I said earlier I've been in that situation and I walked away fairly easily.
However my wife made the comment "If that's sexual assault then I've been sexually assaulted a lot." And I realized that she doesn't see it as sexual assault. She keeps going to the "He's not a mind reader! Tell him no!" camp. And my wife is also a hardcore liberal feminist so her reaction is really throwing me off.
I do feel like the situation is starting to swing too far in the other direction though to the point dudes who didn't do anything are going to start getting accused and their careers are going to be over because everyone is taking a very "If anyone accuses you you're GUILTY" way of doing this to the point the other side will emphatically shut off and try to turn the MeToo movement into what they turned Black Lives matter into and then people that have a real story to tell aren't going to be listened to.
As I said earlier I've been in that situation and I walked away fairly easily.
However my wife made the comment "If that's sexual assault then I've been sexually assaulted a lot." And I realized that she doesn't see it as sexual assault. She keeps going to the "He's not a mind reader! Tell him no!" camp. And my wife is also a hardcore liberal feminist so her reaction is really throwing me off.
I do feel like the situation is starting to swing too far in the other direction though to the point dudes who didn't do anything are going to start getting accused and their careers are going to be over because everyone is taking a very "If anyone accuses you you're GUILTY" way of doing this to the point the other side will emphatically shut off and try to turn the MeToo movement into what they turned Black Lives matter into and then people that have a real story to tell aren't going to be listened to.
KOAB
KOAB
You alienate a large chunk of the good people on your side to the point they decide to ignore your movement in fear something might effect them and then the outright pieces of shit who should've been in fear over what was happening can go back to business as usual. Happens in almost every movement so this one has about the summer before it hits that point I guess. Actually maybe even sooner thanks to the way information is dispersed so quickly now.
⚰ said:
I already see people rebelling and acting like all women are lying whores. Of course they're all conservative but there are a lot of women on their side too. Trust me I've seen way too much "Y'all need to just sit back and thank your man for taking care of you with a hot meal when he gets home from work! Stop complaining!"
SNL was already kind of poking fun at it with their Fashion Show skit this weekend.
Dandy
Posts: 3,237
I really hope this does not come across the wrong way but it seems to me that Aziz may have been used to women wanting to hook up with him because of his fame or a combination of his fame and finding him funny, engaging, etc. Then you have another encounter that seems to be heading that direction and the woman is actually reciprocating some things. I could see where it could have been confusing to him. And he also could have and should have ended it several times. He was more than crossing the line if what she says happened how she said it did.
And also, I have no reason to doubt her story but also wonder if she thought she was giving off the unspoken cues loud and clear but in reality they were not picked up on at all. And I am only speaking of the unspoken ones as there were several times she apparently made it clear verbally as well. I have been in non-sexual situations where I and a female both thought we were giving perfect clues and we could not have been further apart. But to each of us, we were aghast at the other thinking it was going in the other direction.
And also, I have no reason to doubt her story but also wonder if she thought she was giving off the unspoken cues loud and clear but in reality they were not picked up on at all. And I am only speaking of the unspoken ones as there were several times she apparently made it clear verbally as well. I have been in non-sexual situations where I and a female both thought we were giving perfect clues and we could not have been further apart. But to each of us, we were aghast at the other thinking it was going in the other direction.
CookieMueller
Integral Poster
I saw some HLN lady absolutely ripping the girl. That is the most disappointing thing. The accuser isn't pressing charges, she isn't asking for Aziz to be blackballed or fired from any projects. She's bringing up a real problem in the world and yet the story shifts from "hey maybe guys should watch for the cues and learn to be better people" into yet more victim blaming. That's the infuriating part, for me.
When I've not wanted to have sex with a man I've outright said no every time so I can't relate to her exact situation but I think to say "WELL I ALWAYS SAY NO AND I WOULDA RAN OUTTA THERE" is just a form of victim blaming that I refuse to devolve into.
He's fine, most people are on his side. He will not lose his job over this. Even I, someone leaning on the side of the woman, will continue to watch his shows/standup. The fact that he apologized directly to the girl the next day tells me that once he was sober/not in the heat of the moment he probably saw her perspective slightly. Doesn't mean an admission of guilt, just that he acknowledged he could have handled it different and I bet the next 20-something girl he has over he will for sure be extremely accommodating and extra careful. And how anyone could see that as a bad thing is beyond me.
When I've not wanted to have sex with a man I've outright said no every time so I can't relate to her exact situation but I think to say "WELL I ALWAYS SAY NO AND I WOULDA RAN OUTTA THERE" is just a form of victim blaming that I refuse to devolve into.
He's fine, most people are on his side. He will not lose his job over this. Even I, someone leaning on the side of the woman, will continue to watch his shows/standup. The fact that he apologized directly to the girl the next day tells me that once he was sober/not in the heat of the moment he probably saw her perspective slightly. Doesn't mean an admission of guilt, just that he acknowledged he could have handled it different and I bet the next 20-something girl he has over he will for sure be extremely accommodating and extra careful. And how anyone could see that as a bad thing is beyond me.
Yeah the girl doesn't dserve to be torn apart for this but this always happens. SOMEONE has to be the bad guy for people to understand a story. It's awful but true.
CookieMueller
Integral Poster
That's also a shame!
Smartly Pretty
PujolJunkie
909 said:
This is a pretty fucked up idea of what consent is.
pujoljunkie said:
Yes, it is, and good thing that's not what my idea is. No and stop are merely the most universally communicable ways of telling people not to do something. It is definitely preferable to mind reading. As everyone here has no doubt encountered in life, most people out there are socially stunted individuals who need to be put in check and told no sometimes. This is a societal problem that's only going to get worse as people become more disconnected from each other. The non-verbal cues indicated in the article are not explained in any way and as a result are completely vague. This is an educational opportunity for everyone but this wasn't sexual assault as described by the person telling the story.
Mr. S£im Citrus
Representing Blacks Without Soul since 1975
https://twitter.com/rodimusprime/status/952907725356392449
Most people’s morality only extends to “Do I like this person or not?”
CookieMueller
Integral Poster
That's the shit that pisses me off. The girl coming forward isn't what's ruining the 'movement' (as I've seen people say). It's idiots like that - picking and choosing who could possibly be guilty. Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey are old and gross so clearly they're predators. Aziz Ansari is cool and charming, how could he possibly be inappropriate!? Didn't we learn in kindergarten that we can't judge a book by it's cover?
He's been let off the hook for a few reasons. Many people who read the article seem to believe that the woman involved decided that she had no agency in the situation, there's also people who believe men can't do anything wrong, and there's people like myself who think this was a major misunderstanding and lack of communication problem. It has nothing to do with Aziz himself, I would be surprised if most people have watched anything he's done.
I liked this article, which I just read: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/01/aziz-ansari-and-the-paradox-of-no/550556
I liked this article, which I just read: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/01/aziz-ansari-and-the-paradox-of-no/550556
For a moment I feel like going full tinfoil hat way of the world mode, because this story was released right after another one came out that said a child was molested during the making of a film by Hollywood's most bankable director. As we all know James Cameron's next project has such a big budget it could break the way studios do things if it fails. Cameron also made a preemptive comment about how he couldn't have possibly known because directors are oblivious about the relationships that are taking place on their set. I happen to believe you're an idiot if you think that. It isn't that I'm accusing him, but I find his unnecessary explanation quite befuddling in combination with the timing of these two stories. Of course I'm not saying anything about the validity of the story regarding Aziz, after all he confirmed it himself. This is pretty weird to me though.
The way Barbara Walters treated Corey Feldman, the Mossad spies tracking Weinstein victims, none of that stuff even comes close to as far I believe the entertainment industry would go in order to sustain itself. If people involved with the Panama Papers would outright car bomb the leading journalist on the subject nothing should surprise people. Maybe I'm a little high right now though.
The way Barbara Walters treated Corey Feldman, the Mossad spies tracking Weinstein victims, none of that stuff even comes close to as far I believe the entertainment industry would go in order to sustain itself. If people involved with the Panama Papers would outright car bomb the leading journalist on the subject nothing should surprise people. Maybe I'm a little high right now though.
KOAB
KOAB
Eh that's just kinda how things work man. One day Seal is shitting all over Oprah during a time when that's a big NO NO and the next day
strummer said:
CookieMueller
Integral Poster
Damaramu said:
I was replying to the author of those articles. There's no reason for her to change her stance. What the first article suggests is "finally! women have a platform to freely discuss men that hurt them" and what the aziz article suggests is "ugh! women have GOT to shut up! enough already!" It's the same author, what caused the change in opinion? This has NOTHING to do with whether you believe she was assaulted. She deserves to be able to tell her story as long as it's true. That's when your opinion takes over. You don't have to like what she says but she should be able to say it. Aziz and James Franco have even said this in their responses to being accused. I don't want the narrative to shift from "tell your story" into "wildly accuse men of things they didn't do" but at the same time I don't want it to change to "keep quiet about your truths because people will just call you a liar" either.
Here's the full email the http://Babe.net reporter who wrote the Aziz Ansari story sent when asked to go on HLN with @TVAshleigh. It is really something.
https://twitter.com/maxwelltani/status/953729116649517056
https://twitter.com/maxwelltani/status/953729116649517056
Brooklyn Zoo
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Dandy
Posts: 3,237
Damn! She went more HAM than I did on Jingus in my votings every year in the Poster of the Year Tournament!* I can see her stance on Ashleigh, but that rant also reeks of a 22 year old that views her status a little higher than the rest of the world. "No one under the age of 45" and "I am 22 and so far not too shabby" makes her sound like what all the older generations accuse millennials of being.
*Which is currently being resurrected in the General Chat folder, by the way.
*Which is currently being resurrected in the General Chat folder, by the way.
Based on ratings patterns she isn't far wrong though.