Joss Whedon Shows - Dollhouse, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly Discussion Thread

[KingPK]

Nope.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

The most baffling thing is that if you want a black female Slayer, you have Kendra and Nikki Woods right there... why utilize the Buffy name itself with the reboot?

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Because it's what every casual fan knows?

 

[HarleyQuinn]

I've been greatly getting into the Passion of the Nerd recaps of Buffy and Angel. Really good analysis of thematic exploration and episode plot synopsis' without being bogged in overly smart thoughts.

 

[KingPK]

I've been watching his stuff for about a year (since I did my Buffy rewatch last year). Now I'm using his Angel guide to decide which season 1 episodes are the most essential (since season 1 is regarded as intensely up and down) since I can finally watch them on Hulu.

 

[KingPK]

It doesn't help that (I'm sorry) I think Elisabeth Rohm is a horrible actress, but man does Kate just not do anything for me at all in Angel season 1. It's an extremely up and down season as it is, but making her kind of the audience surrogate to explain a bunch of the demonic stuff AND a quasi-romantic interest for Angel was a couple of bad ideas. The stuff with her dad just sucks.

It feels a lot like Buffy season 1 where they seem to want a kind of "Case of the week" format before they realized they already have a trio of great characters they can dig deeper into and can introduce a couple more into the group.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

I've grown to warm a little bit to her character but I think her

Spoiler

leaving the show

was for the better as the show was able to then focus on a core group reminiscent of the Scoobies.

 

[Youth N Asia]

I've grown to warm a little bit to her character but I think her

Spoiler

leaving the show

was for the better as the show was able to then focus on a core group reminiscent of the Scoobies.

Absolutely. It just didn’t work.

 

[KingPK]

So I'm making my way through season 2 and just got to "Blood Money". I think this might be one of the worst episodes of the series so far. Its heavy handed (the charity money literally has blood on it SYMBOLISM), character motivations are all over the place (why are we supposed to think Anne is doing anything wrong at any point in this episode? Angel set all that up just to fuck with Wolfram and Hart?) and it definitely felt like Cordy, Wes and Gunn were a complete afterthought (though it was nice to see them bonding). I know Angel isn't really supposed to be a "good guy" at this point given all that has happened this season so far (which is honestly a lot for like 12 episodes into a 22 episode season), but I really hope it's just one bad episode.

 

[KingPK]

https://youtu.be/9DLz9p6-2vM

Ok, this show is pretty good.

 

[KingPK]

So I'm a few episodes into season 3 and I'm starting to form an overall opinion on Angel. I love the core group and when they interact with each other (and now with Fred and Lorne) and I kinda dislike pretty much everything else. The effects REALLY don't hold up, a lot of the writing gets pretty unsubtle with whatever message or theme they want to convey hammered home, some of the acting outside the leads is really bad and I just don't care about Wolfram and Hart as the defacto "Big Bad" of the series. It definitely feels like the little brother to Buffy.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

So I'm a few episodes into season 3 and I'm starting to form an overall opinion on Angel. I love the core group and when they interact with each other (and now with Fred and Lorne) and I kinda dislike pretty much everything else. The effects REALLY don't hold up, a lot of the writing gets pretty unsubtle with whatever message or theme they want to convey hammered home, some of the acting outside the leads is really bad and I just don't care about Wolfram and Hart as the defacto "Big Bad" of the series. It definitely feels like the little brother to Buffy.

The Wolfram & Hart stuff gets better through S3 and way more-so into S5 IMO especially as certain characters get introduced and given screen time within the lawyer group.

S3 will hinge on its main plot and whether you enjoy a few of the particular character arcs that run through it. First time through, I didn't like it much but I've appreciated it a ton more upon future re-watches.

 

[KingPK]

I finished season 3. Nothing has changed about my opinions on the writing (it's still a huge step down from Buffy) and the characters (the main group's chemistry is really making up for the writing and everyone else aside from Lilah can disappear forever). I can count the number of episodes I want to watch again on one, MAYBE two hands. Now I don't know if I even want to start season 4 because I'm already pretty meh on the show overall and everyone says it's the worst season.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

I finished season 3. Nothing has changed about my opinions on the writing (it's still a huge step down from Buffy) and the characters (the main group's chemistry is really making up for the writing and everyone else aside from Lilah can disappear forever). I can count the number of episodes I want to watch again on one, MAYBE two hands. Now I don't know if I even want to start season 4 because I'm already pretty meh on the show overall and everyone says it's the worst season.

You may be better off scattershotting your way through S4 and jumping into Season 5 (just for the Fred/Wes/Gunn plot alone as well as the infamous puppet episode, one of the funniest eps on either show). There's some solid S4 episodes such as Supersymmetry and Spin the Bottle (aka Angel's Tabula Rasa episode) but it can be a real fight at times.

 

[Youth N Asia]

5 didn’t hold up for me near as much on a rewatch. Budget was slashed to hell and most of the show was based in the one location. Not saying where. He’ll get there.

 

[KingPK]

I will say that, although I still think Willow was the best developed character in the Buffyverse, Cordy's growth through Angel is a close second. I bought her and Angel falling in love throughout the season but bringing Groo back and then sending them away for probably the biggest story beat of the season (Connor being kidnapped) was pretty dumb. Wesley's betrayal works but it's that same dumb trope where a character doesn't tell anyone a big secret thing when just telling one person might have helped.

 

[One Epic Winter (OEW)]

Joss Whedon getting cancelled reminded me that I'm currently watching Buffy for the very first time (one of the girlfriend's favorite shows). Loved the movie when i was younger but never cared to watch the show when it aired until now.

It's a fine little show if you don't take it too seriously. I'm at the end of season 2 where the Buffy/Angel stuff peaks. Xander and Willow are my favorite characters.

That episode with the school shooter had to have been before Columbine. No way that gets greenlit afterwards.

Which season does Michee Trachtenberg come in?

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Joss Whedon getting cancelled reminded me that I'm currently watching Buffy for the very first time (one of the girlfriend's favorite shows). Loved the movie when i was younger but never cared to watch the show when it aired until now.

It's a fine little show if you don't take it too seriously. I'm at the end of season 2 where the Buffy/Angel stuff peaks. Xander and Willow are my favorite characters.

That episode with the school shooter had to have been before Columbine. No way that gets greenlit afterwards.

Which season does Michee Trachtenberg come in?

Michelle enters in Season 5 (the first "live" season I actually watched as a friend recommended the show to me due to my fandom of SMG at the time).

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Dawn was a fucking cancer. The show generally took a quality dive after Angel left (although Spike is better than Angel and anything involving him is fantastic) and season 5 is especially where I thought it started to go down. I prefer Angel as a show. That said I haven't rewatched either in over a decade.

 

[One Epic Winter (OEW)]

At the end of Season 3. Eliza Dushku is one bad bitch #Faith4Ever

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Re-watched the Serenity movie on SyFy last night and it still holds up... Joss got a way with dialogue for sure.

 

[One Epic Winter (OEW)]

Season 4 of Buffy and I'm loving Spike. His apathy towards anything is so great.

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Spike carried that season on his back from what I remember. Especially with the other lame love interest.

 

[One Epic Winter (OEW)]

Season 5 of Buffy now. Dawn sucks.

That episode with the two Xanders was really good, though. Xander is great comic relief. I assume that was his IRL twin acting with him?

Oh, I also started watching Angel. I'm in season 2 and Gunn is my guy!

 

[cobainwasmurdered]

Yeah Dawn is terrible. Really hard to watch that stuff once whcih is why I haven't rewatched. Gunn is great in Angel I agree.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Yeah. Dawn wasn't any good at all. Kind of a clever want to bring her in. Never worked for me.

Gunn was fine, but Whedon, and the writers take on black culture was some cringe shit.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Season 5 of Buffy now. Dawn sucks.

That episode with the two Xanders was really good, though. Xander is great comic relief. I assume that was his IRL twin acting with him?

Oh, I also started watching Angel. I'm in season 2 and Gunn is my guy!

Yep, that was his twin.

I liked Michelle Trachtenburg as an actress but the Dawn character was written pretty poorly from episode to episode, nevermind the overall arc of S5. She gets a smidge better by S7 but the character never felt like a well-written character outside of a few episodes (S5's Real Me, IMO, was her strongest ep and that characterization never felt built upon).

 

[One Epic Winter (OEW)]

I'm not really loving all of these flashback episodes of both shows in Season 5. Spike's origin story was ok but all others were meh. Xander is also taking kind of a background role now.

 

[One Epic Winter (OEW)]

Towards the end of Season 5 with Buffy.

Spoiler

Joyce dying and her subsequent attempted resurrection

were some of the best episodes of the series. Everyone's character work was on point.

Finishing season 2 of Angel. Everyone getting fired and doing their best to find their own footing was a nice little angle as was the demon that acts as Angel's comic relief (hope he sticks around).

 

[One Epic Winter (OEW)]

Finished season 5 of Buffy.

Spoiler

so Buffy just dies, huh? Was this a case of them thinking it wouldn't be picked up for a 6th season and when it did, conjured up some convoluted reason to bring her back?

I wasn't really feeling the last few episodes of Angel season 2 with the Pylea storyline. As much as I enjoy Gunn, I think Lorne might be my favorite character now. Hope he sticks around.