Joss Whedon Shows - Dollhouse, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly Discussion Thread

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just watched an episode of Angel with Jeremy Renner as a vampire. Another guy who's hit it big time since.

Angel season 1 is just too little continuing storyline and they just pile up way too much on Angel to make him dark and tortured. In the first few episodes they give him the chance to daywalk, and take it away, turn him human, and take it away, and then kill one of his mates. A little much.

I'd forgotten how little Adam seems to show up in season 4 of Buffy. The fiance and I marathoned Buffy up to the point of crossover episodes and catch back up with Angel when it crosses over

 

[AntiLeaf33]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm about to start watching Buffy from the beginning. I've seen the majority of the episodes but I always seemed to have caught the self contained "filled" episodes so I missed out on most of the major plot points.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just finished Buffy 4/ Angel 1. I reckon I'll check back in after I wrap seasons. And not repeat earlier posts.

Buffy season 4

-The only real dog this season was Beer Bad. Otherwise no terrible episodes.

-I'd forgotten that they changed the opening sequence for Superstar.

-I'd also forgotten about the Cheese Man in Restless. That made me smile seeing it again. Great episode. Forgot that Oz came back for that one as well.

Angel season 1

-Probably the worst of the 12 seasons between Buffy and Angel. So much filler. so little Wolfram & Heart. They just pop in a time or two early, but show back up in the end of the season like they'd been there all along.

-Halfway through the season Kate's usefulness and reason for existing just kinda came to a halt.

-The season really didn't get good until the Faith cross-over episodes. And that was nearly at the end.

-Benz and Dushku were smoking balls hot 12 years ago... that's all.

 

[Anakin Flair]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

-Halfway through the season Kate's usefulness and reason for existing just kinda came to a halt.

I think this was around the time the actress playing Kate was cast in Law & Order.

-Benz and Dushku were smoking balls hot 12 years ago... that's all.

God, I can't believe it's been 12 years. And yes, they were smoking.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just finished Buffy season 5 and Angel season 2. Thoughts:

ANGEL:

Much better season for Angel than season 1. Wolfram & Hart are much better fleshed out this year. Could have done without any Kate this year though. Darla, Dru, and Holland Manners were all fun villains to watch.

Cordy seems to have aged more than the other actors.

I always liked Lindsey in the tweener spot. Didn't know if he really wanted to be the bad guy or not.

The writers take on young black culture was a little hard to watch at times. I think it's safe to say it was a pretty cracker heavy team behind things. One guy called Gunn "G" every time he started a sentence towards him.

Never cared much for the Pylea story to wrap the season. Kinda came out of nowhere.

BUFFY:

Glory is probably the earliest Buffy bad guy introduction or any outside of The Master (short season). She's brought on in episode 2.

Amy Adams shows up as Tara's cousin this season. The biggest star working today that I can remember on Buffy.

I didn't care much for Glory this time around, as a villain she was just fine, but Clare Kramer just came off as a bad actress much of the time, as did the guy that played Ben.

The Body is still a tough episode for me, as it hits close to home.

No real bad episodes this season. Maybe the only season without an honest to God dog in the bunch. The last 4 or 5 episodes string together really well and keep you wanting to watch. The fiance and I stayed up til 4am the other night marathoning.

This is also the last season we see Xander in reasonably good shape. I remember him putting on a good amount of weight between 4 and 5. As Angel himself does later on.

Dawn didn't bother me as much this time around. Until she would do her "this is my angry voice." I could just mostly write her off as being a moody teenager.

BOTH:

Cordy and Anya are almost the same character these seasons with "Do you have money? I would like your money."

Episode 2 of each show is where both shows get their home base. The hotel on Angel, and the Magic Box on Buffy.

The Fool For Love and Darla cross-over episodes remain two of my favorites. Well told together.

 

[Jingus]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

The writers talk on young black culture was a little hard to watch at times. I think it's safe to say it was a pretty cracker heavy team behind things. One guy called Gunn "G" every time he started a sentence towards him.

Yeah, that was always a big problem on Angel. It was painfully obvious that all the writers were upper-class white suburbanites who'd probably never even seen a ghetto. Any time they tried to write street-smart dialogue, it sucked hard.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Welshy did a Top 10 Buffy list over at the Channel Awesome site for those who are curious. So... here is my Top 10. May not necessarily be the best but definitely Top 10 favorites.

#10: The Zeppo. Fantastic Xander-centric episode that is funny, makes Xander cool, and almost riffs on the entire series as a whole up to this point by pushing the "big" stuff to the background.
#09: Becoming, Part 2. I like this episode a lot but I've never been a fan of the Buffy/Angel relationship. It gets on here in part due to the final fight and little moments such as Willow's spell but as a whole, it didn't resonate with me like many others apparently.
#08: Hush. A great episode that I love most of with a ton of cute little moments but think it's slightly overrated by most fans.
#07: Helpless. Really sets the transition of the Buffy/Giles relationship whilst offering a unique view of what Buffy could be like if she got what she wanted in "being normal".
#06: The Wish. As good an AU episode as it gets and one of the few episodes that really showed the potentially dark side of Buffy from an evil perspective. One could argue this is the grimmest the series ever got.
#05: Fool For Love. Probably the peak of Spike's "story" as a character whilst tying into the overall S5 story as well. Everything absolutely gets nailed here.
#04: Passion. The episode that really pushed Angelus into legit "big bad" territory and for me contains the second most heart tugging moment of the entire series, involving Giles.
#03: The Body. The strongest episode emotionally for me. I think I've only seen this in full like three times maybe because it's just too heart tugging.
#02: The Gift. Just such a perfect ending to the storyline of Season 5 and really the series overall.
#01: Doppelgangland. You get Alyson playing 4 different 'characters', comedy left and right, cuteness (Willow's wave to Oz & her trying to act as Vamp Willow), and quotable dialogue out the ass.

 

[vivisectvi]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Great list, though I would've thrown Restless (Season 4 "Dream" finale) in there over Becoming Pt 2.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Great list, though I would've thrown Restless (Season 4 "Dream" finale) in there over Becoming Pt 2.

Yeah, I was torn but Restless is a lot like Once More, With Feeling to me in that it's a very good episode but it just doesn't resonate with me as much after multiple viewings.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just finished Buffy 6 / Angel 3. Thoughts

ANGEL

This was the first all the way through solid season of Angel. And if I remember correctly the last season where Gunn has to deal with his old crew. Which is a blessing.

Really good guest stars this season. The characters Holtz, Billy, Gavin (introduced in season 2, but just for a moment), Skip, and Sahjihan. Really good story lines. I could have done without Holtz's redheaded #2 pain in the ass though.

The love stories all fall flat for me this season. Angel and Cordy felt forced and never worked for me... plus I liked The Groosalugg. And it only felt like Fred and Gunn were paired because they steered so hard to make you think it was going to be Fred and Wesley. Little Whedonish to push a story line so hard one way to just say "psych! We're going that way!"

Summer Glau from Firefly guest stars as a ballerina... so there.

This goes with both shows. By this time they've really overdone the bit where a character says something that can be taken as a sexual comment. They get awkward looks from others, and then vocalize their humiliation


Buffy

While I understand that the series will not keep its lead star dead for long... I would have liked the idea of Buffy being gone for more than an hour of the series. No real sense of loss.

This season just feels way different than others. I know it was the first on UPN, the look was just different.

The Buffy and Spike back and forth love story deal went on way way way too long. Nearly every episode had something to do with it.

Buffy's thinking confuses me sometimes. Where they're going through money problems Buffy's answer is "I know what I have to go... I need to go back to school." ...I was thinking a job makes more sense, rather than spending more money while bringing none in.

I thought that Giles leaving was actually really good for the season. Made his return at the end that much better.

Until the last 1/4 of the season Xander was more or less just there as background. Fat background.

"Once More With Feeling" is still pretty awesome. The only musical tv episode I've seen where there's an actual reason for it to be happening. And the demon Sweet was pretty cool.

Didn't mind seeing Tara go. While I liked the character well enough, I don't think there was much else to do with her.

Dawn sucks. She just sucks now. The episode where they're stuck in the house and can't leave, her response is "Good. I'm glad we're stuck. NOW SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO SPEND TIME WITH ME!" E-fucking-Gads. She goes from annoying teenager to pain in the ass little bitch.

I never cared for The Trio, while I understand they were never the real threat, it seemed off not having a real villain this season. I liked the Dark Willow saga closing out the season. The magic addiction was a good story. Didn't start out great, but was well told and paid off pretty well.

I think I tend to remember Buffy better than Angel. With Angel I don't tend to remember episodes by their names, the episodes tend to bleed into each other a little more. Where as Buffy I still can figure out what most episodes are about by their name

 

[bps21]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm in the third season of a Buffy rewatch. I've never noticed before how much of a shift there is in tone between seasons 2 and 3. There were always the quips before season 3...but the entire tone of the episodes changes after the end of 2. It's weird because season 2 has some of my favorite episodes ever in it (Innocence, Passion, Becoming) but I think I enjoy the lighter tone post season 2 when the world was still ending but they'd been there and done that and it wasn't really the end of the word.

 

[Edwin]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Super-seriousness comes back into play pretty strongly by season 5. I rewatched with my girlfriend last year, and the season 3 through season 4 stretch ended up being my favorite. Seasons 2 and 5 may have some higher highs, but 3 and 4 were when it was hitting on all the right notes, and felt like the creative peak. Even Riley's way better than I remembered!

 

[RavishingRickRudo]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Rewatched hole in the world and smile time from season 5. Smile time is still hilarious, hole in the world was awkward out of context, but the end is still sad, though throughout it comes off as the fred and wes try for an emmy show..

 

[Anakin Flair]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Spoiler alert for another show! somewhat off topic- I just watched every season of The Closer. The third to last episode of season 7 had Brenda

Spoiler

finding the dead body of her mother in her bed; she had passed away during the night from natural causes

. This reminded me so much of The Body, it was scary, and that was a good thing.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Wrapped up Angel 4 and Buffy 7... a couple of weeks ago. Thoughts:

Angel season 4

-Another solid season overall. After a bad first season and an uneven second season Angel finally strides for a second year in a row.

-Conner was less obnoxious the second time around. Easier teen angst to deal with over Dawn.

-Wesley's glasses and Fred's Texas accent are things of the past by the start of this season.

-"Spin the Bottle" - Didn't care for the episode too much. It felt like they wanted to make Tabula Rasa, but for Angel. They couldn't come right out and make the exact same episode. So they made almost exactly the same episode.

-"Awakening" was another one I didn't like. It was all just a dream episode that only filled space.

-I never cared for the Cordelia character on Angel. Thought she was a good fit for Buffy, but the character ran its course there. It would have been better for me to just end her there. The forced romance story with Angel just wasn't any good for me. It's like they needed a woman in the life of their main character, so she would do.

-The Jasmine storyline felt like a letdown after the big Beast/Angelus/Faith storyline. After the first half of the first Jasmine episode I was already tired of it this time. "Oh you're beautiful, we love you, thank you for everything..." It was just episode after episode of this over and over again. I'm also not crazy about how they just so happen to fall into the way to destroy her. They just so happen to find themselves into the sewers for an unrelated issue, and find a way into a world that knows her.

-The first person to see Jasmine for what she really is was Sam Witwer. AKA Aidan from Syfy's Being Human. AKA Doomsday from Smallville. AKA Neil Perry the fake Ice Truck Killer from Dexter. AKA... that zombie Rick shot in the tank at the end of the Walking Dead's first episode.

-Lorne's singing. And the singing in general is all off key or the tempo has been changed. I imagine that's to avoid paying fees, but it's distracting when nearly every song just sounds off.

-The Beast story was killer. It's a shame they sent the character out like a bitch.

-Despite my bitching, I enjoyed this season a lot.



Buffy season 7

-Little weird thinking there's a chance this could be the last time I ever watch the series. I'm minimum a decade away from watching again if at all.

-While not a bad season, it all bleeds together. If you name previous season episodes there's a better than 50/50 chance I'll know what episode it was just based on the name. Season 7, I have little to no idea what's what. It just all felt like one big episode.

-Dawn. Back to hating her full force. Michelle is not the world's strongest actress. And when she's showing angst and anger it's often cringe worthy.

-Back to bad acting. The slayers in training in general were not good actresses. The two English ones and Eve early on. It's just bad acting and bad accents. The one that played Rona was also pretty bad. Good call leaving Kennedy to do most of the heavy lifting.

-Much like Angel. On Buffy they just so happen to find what it takes to beat the bad guy at the last minute and out of nowhere.

-Nathan Fillion was great as Caleb. One scene I really liked was where he confronts Buffy at the school. It was after he'd already beaten her and her team down. And here he is showing up at her work, where she's alone and just out in the open.

-While the scene at the end of the first episode with all of the Big Bads with Spike was cool, it didn't make total sense from a storyline with Spike. Spike did not have any run-ins with The Master or The Mayor. So while it was a cool scene, it shouldn't have had any impact with Spike.

-"Oops." This is one the writers have fallen back on a time too many
-Bad guy says something to reveal that they are the bad guy
-Good Guy: "But I thought you said..." or "How did you know..." or "but I never..."
-Bad Guy: "oops"
-And I know another one is coming up next year on Angel.

-I liked the callbacks to previous seasons here. The girl turning invisible in school because she's not being noticed. The Cheese Man popping into Andrew and Johnathan's dream's. "The world is doomed' in the last episode.

-Andrew... Andrew, Andrew, Andrew. I hate the character. I was ok with him being an obnoxious bad guy in season 6, but he was on the show way way way too much in season 7. The annoyance far outweighed the comedy he brought.

-9. That is the number of black characters that have appeared on Buffy that made some sort of impact. By that I mean more than one episode, and had speaking lines. You've got The first slayer, Kendra, Rona, Nikki Wood, Robin Wood, Olivia, Forrest, Mr. Trick, and a guidance counselor that was in season 3 or 4 for a couple of episodes.

-The home bases were
-Seasons 1-3 The Library
-Season 4 Giles' House
-Seasons 5-6 The Magic Box
-Season 7 Buffy's House

I think that's all I got. Good shit.

 

[bps21]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Alright this was impossibly fucking hard...but after a full rewatch I got it down to a top 10 Buffy list.

My final cuts were Innocence, Becoming Part 1, The Wish and Dopplegangland. So...yeah this was ridiculous to try and do.

10. Who Are You. The best Faith episode IMO...which is funny because SMG is the one playing her. For her part it's probably Dushku's finest hour acting as Buffy as Faith understanding some of why Faith is Faith. It's the first of...almost all Joss episodes in the list. They really stand out in a rewatch.

9. Hush. It's really brilliant. Top 9 brilliant in fact. Just not as great as some of the other episodes that messed with the usual construct. The exposition scene is the best in the shows history though.

8. Becoming Part 2. Part 1 was hard to cut because I enjoyed those flashback scenes...but the good stuff really happens in 2. Everything spike related is top notch. And it's probably the best they ever did showing the perils of being the slayer and trying to have a normal life. The ending is so great.

7. The Zeppo. This was the first episode that really made me see that the show was more than just a show with occasionally great episodes. Prophecy Girl, Innocence, Passion, Becoming, Lovers Walk, The Wish...they'd had some great eps...but this was the one that was so different. The swelling music during the emotional Buffy/Angel cliche scene is maybe my favorite comedic moment in the shows whole run. That or Giles dressed as a wizard in season 5.

6. Fool For Love. Big Spike fan...so this is no shocker. Also a big fan of flashback scenes in the series and Spikes were always the best.

5. Once More With Feeling. It holds up really well. It's so different but it just fits so perfectly that it almost doesn't seem strange.

4. The Body. Honestly it's probably the best episode of the series...but you watch it and you don't exactly look forward to it on the rewatch. I had a similar experience with a parent...and to say this is dead on in capturing it is an understatement. It's getting ranked 4th because while it's pretty much a perfect hour of TV...it's not one that I want to pop on for a quick view.

3. Passion. It's just so good. IMO easily the best episode from before they started making the show funny and not just a show that had some funny lines. This was the masterpiece of the first 2 seasons (which on rewatch felt a lot different than the rest of the show). It's the most dangerous the show ever felt. Angel arranging Jenny in Giles' bed for a romantic evening is a height that I don't think this or any similarly themed series has ever reached again.

2. The Gift. Just too many amazing moments to ignore. Buffy's perfect death, Giles finest moment, Spike being invited back into Buffy's house and his quick speech, the Giles/Buffy strife at the beginning as they figure out what to do, the previously on Buffy that showed at least a quick clip of the first 99 eps and the simple Buffy vs. vampire opening...

1. Restless. I always loved Restless but it wasn't until the rewatch that it really stood out as THAT special. It's the best character study ever. It's funny and weird and has a tremendous amount of weight to it. Willow being outed as a nerd, all roads leading Xander to the basement and his fear of what's actually at the door, Giles singing the exposition scene, an effectively creepy first slayer stalking them around and the true beginning of Buffy starting her quest to discover what a slayer really is that leads to my favorite season the next year.

...

In 3 years when I watch it again I'm sure this will all change.

 

[Jingus]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Not feeling it on your #1, but the rest is a pretty good list.

 

[Anakin Flair]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Youth, Spike was part of the Order of Aurleaus (or however the name was spelled), which was headed by The Master.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Youth, Spike was part of the Order of Aurleaus (or however the name was spelled), which was headed by The Master.

When/Where was that mentioned?

I'll knock out my top ten when I can find an hour to figure it out

 

[bps21]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Don't do it...it's like picking children and then Jingus will tell you you're favorite kid is ugly.

 

[Jingus]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Youth, Spike was part of the Order of Aurleaus (or however the name was spelled), which was headed by The Master.

When/Where was that mentioned?

If it ever was, it was pretty offhand. Spike's connection to the Master was tenuous at best, and none of the leftover vampire flunkies in that gang seemed to have any idea who Spike was. The show implied that after Angel got soul-ified, Darla went to join the Master while Spike and Drusilla just kinda wandered the world and killed lots of people.

Don't do it...it's like picking children and then Jingus will tell you you're favorite kid is ugly.

Aw. Are you saying that I'm some sort of heartless curmudgeon, someone whose entire existence is predicated upon the schadenfreude he feels when raining on someone's parade? I'm hurt. I have a heart too, sir.



Incidentally, it's "your", not "you're". People who make that mistake are worse than Hitler.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Youth, Spike was part of the Order of Aurleaus (or however the name was spelled), which was headed by The Master.

When/Where was that mentioned?

If it ever was, it was pretty offhand. Spike's connection to the Master was tenuous at best, and none of the leftover vampire flunkies in that gang seemed to have any idea who Spike was. The show implied that after Angel got soul-ified, Darla went to join the Master while Spike and Drusilla just kinda wandered the world and killed lots of people.

I was always under the impression that The Master favored Darla the most, after all he did make her, and that Angelus was more a part of the package with her in relation to The Master. I also thought that Angelus' brood (Angelus/Darla/Spike/Drusilla) was its own little family and didn't have any real connection familial wise to any other vampire group including The Master's.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Youth, Spike was part of the Order of Aurleaus (or however the name was spelled), which was headed by The Master.

When/Where was that mentioned?

If it ever was, it was pretty offhand. Spike's connection to the Master was tenuous at best, and none of the leftover vampire flunkies in that gang seemed to have any idea who Spike was. The show implied that after Angel got soul-ified, Darla went to join the Master while Spike and Drusilla just kinda wandered the world and killed lots of people.

I was always under the impression that The Master favored Darla the most, after all he did make her, and that Angelus was more a part of the package with her in relation to The Master. I also thought that Angelus' brood (Angelus/Darla/Spike/Drusilla) was its own little family and didn't have any real connection familial wise to any other vampire group including The Master's.

Darla chose Angel over The Master in an Angel season 4 flashback. It looked like she removed herself from him before Spike and Darla were turned

 

[Anakin Flair]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Guess I'll put this in here: according to CBR, Agent Coulson lives, and will be one of the stars of Wheedon's SHIELD show.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just wrapped season 5 of Angel. I'll do a write up this weekend. The finance and I started the Buffy/Angel project last December. Just over 10 months to get through all 256 episodes.

Is Dollhouse worth watching? I know it's not as long, and should be easier to get through.

 

[bps21]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

After about episode 5 the show is fantastic.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

The first 4 episodes or so were pretty much "Fox Mandated" in terms of style and plot (with each episode lifting pieces from the unaired version of the initial pilot as well). Episode 5 on is pretty much where it gets its feet on the ground so to speak.

Also for those who may not know, the Science channel will be airing a "Browncoats Unite" special re-uniting the cast of Firefly on November 11th. Not sure if it may've aired previously but looks like it could be a neat round table type thing.

 

[BlackFlagg]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=xs_gb_AMMMYOASU2QT9?ie=UTF8&docId=1000841671&pf_rd_p=441937901&pf_rd_s=right-1&pf_rd_t=701&pf_rd_i=20&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0ZNBRN0S8T72A3N0NRHG 65% off Whedon stuff, Buffy complete series $65.99, Angel $55.99, Firefly blu-ray $18.49...

 

[bps21]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

On the Science channel special about ten years of Firefly...Tim Minear finally told Inara's secret. I don't know why I'm spoilering this...but whatever...

Spoiler

She was dying of a terminal illness. So...yeah it was happy times ahead for sure. Also the thing in the pilot that she looks at and they never explain when they think the Reavers will board them...was a drug that she would take that would poison and kill anything that fucked with her (IE: Reaver rape). They had a story planned where she would be taken by Reavers and by the time Mal got there all the Reavers would be dead...which implies...well...you know.

He said it was the first story Joss pitched to him when he asked him to do the show with him.

For those that don't know they did Book's backstory in comic form...so now I feel like I got more closure.

 

[Youth N Asia]

Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I never read A Shepherd's Tale. Reviews on Amazon were not kind. What was the backstory?