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Joss Whedon Shows - Dollhouse, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly Discussion Thread
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bps21
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Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I'm into the last 5 episodes and I just got to thinking how it's kind of cool that the 4 main stars of all 4 Joss Whedon TV shows are in the finale of this show. Gellar - Buffy, Boreanaz - Angel, Fillion - Firefly and Dushku - Dollhouse.
If he ever returns to TV it'll have to star Felicia Day. I demand it.
I'm into the last 5 episodes and I just got to thinking how it's kind of cool that the 4 main stars of all 4 Joss Whedon TV shows are in the finale of this show. Gellar - Buffy, Boreanaz - Angel, Fillion - Firefly and Dushku - Dollhouse.
If he ever returns to TV it'll have to star Felicia Day. I demand it.
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Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I did my own Buffy marathon re-watch a while ago and here's how I ranked the seasons at the end...
Season 7: It actually started off pretty strongly but started struggling around episode 10. Outside of a couple episodes, the second half largely did nothing for me.
Season 4: Yeah, despite my above post, it's going here. For as great as several of the episodes were, the overall plot was just so underachieved. It only goes above S7 due to the handful of great episodes but it never quite felt like the writers were comfortable with moving on from high school and the sudden loss of characters: Oz, Wesley, Angel, and Cordelia.
Season 1: There's just a certain charm about this season, even if half the episodes are really poor. The second half is surprisingly strong and I wonder how The Master could have fared with the later writing staff.
Season 2: It's basically saved by the Angelus/Spike/Drusilla triangle really. It has a lot of the worst episodes of Buffy ever (Some Assembly Required, Reptile Boy, Bad Eggs, and Go Fish). It goes here in part due to the sheer greatness of the Angelus character as well as several really underrated episodes in "Lie To Me", "Phases", and "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered."
Season 6: If asked a while ago, this would be at the bottom. This season has grown on me a ton and it's largely all thanks to the acting job by Sarah Michelle Gellar. Nuanced and subtle from episode 1 on, it's arguably her best season long job ever. All of the other characters have just enough impact (Xander/Anya, Willow/Tara, Spike/Buffy) even if the magic = drug metaphor was absolutely retarded. This is one of those seasons that's just really solid all the way through even if there's just one real truly standout episode (OMWF although a bit overrated).
Season 5: Maybe the tightest seasonal arc of any Buffy season. Has THREE of the best episodes to ever air in the series (Fool For Love, The Body, and The Gift) and almost every other episode is at the very least, solid. The weakest episodes are probably "Buffy vs. Dracula" or "I Was Made to Love You" but you had the fun mockery of Dracula and the introduction of Warren Mears as a character (and really the start of Spike's crush turning into obsession).
Season 3: Similar to Season 2 plot wise with some weak episodes here and there (I'm looking at you "Beauty and the Beasts") but it is the peak of character writing in my opinion. Introduction of Wesley, Faith, The Mayor, and Anya. Marks the return of Angel and his eventual departure (as well as the departures of Wesley and Cordelia). Spike's return marks the best single episode appearance in the entire series. Vampire Willow appears and is so popular (in an alternate universe episode!) that she gets a SECOND episode in the same season. Every major character has a great standalone episode centered on them and it all just rocks.
I did my own Buffy marathon re-watch a while ago and here's how I ranked the seasons at the end...
Season 7: It actually started off pretty strongly but started struggling around episode 10. Outside of a couple episodes, the second half largely did nothing for me.
Season 4: Yeah, despite my above post, it's going here. For as great as several of the episodes were, the overall plot was just so underachieved. It only goes above S7 due to the handful of great episodes but it never quite felt like the writers were comfortable with moving on from high school and the sudden loss of characters: Oz, Wesley, Angel, and Cordelia.
Season 1: There's just a certain charm about this season, even if half the episodes are really poor. The second half is surprisingly strong and I wonder how The Master could have fared with the later writing staff.
Season 2: It's basically saved by the Angelus/Spike/Drusilla triangle really. It has a lot of the worst episodes of Buffy ever (Some Assembly Required, Reptile Boy, Bad Eggs, and Go Fish). It goes here in part due to the sheer greatness of the Angelus character as well as several really underrated episodes in "Lie To Me", "Phases", and "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered."
Season 6: If asked a while ago, this would be at the bottom. This season has grown on me a ton and it's largely all thanks to the acting job by Sarah Michelle Gellar. Nuanced and subtle from episode 1 on, it's arguably her best season long job ever. All of the other characters have just enough impact (Xander/Anya, Willow/Tara, Spike/Buffy) even if the magic = drug metaphor was absolutely retarded. This is one of those seasons that's just really solid all the way through even if there's just one real truly standout episode (OMWF although a bit overrated).
Season 5: Maybe the tightest seasonal arc of any Buffy season. Has THREE of the best episodes to ever air in the series (Fool For Love, The Body, and The Gift) and almost every other episode is at the very least, solid. The weakest episodes are probably "Buffy vs. Dracula" or "I Was Made to Love You" but you had the fun mockery of Dracula and the introduction of Warren Mears as a character (and really the start of Spike's crush turning into obsession).
Season 3: Similar to Season 2 plot wise with some weak episodes here and there (I'm looking at you "Beauty and the Beasts") but it is the peak of character writing in my opinion. Introduction of Wesley, Faith, The Mayor, and Anya. Marks the return of Angel and his eventual departure (as well as the departures of Wesley and Cordelia). Spike's return marks the best single episode appearance in the entire series. Vampire Willow appears and is so popular (in an alternate universe episode!) that she gets a SECOND episode in the same season. Every major character has a great standalone episode centered on them and it all just rocks.
bps21
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Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I was shocked by how much direction season 5 had upon rewatching it. Also I remember watching it on original airing and going nuts with them not explaining Dawn for several weeks.
It's a real credit to James Marsters and the writers that they were able to make Spike so fucking awesome despite all of the handicaps they saddled his character with over the years.
He's a badass awesome vampire.
Now he's in a wheelchair.
Now he has a chip in his head.
Now he's in love with Buffy.
Now he has a soul.
Now he's a ghost.
And yet...nothing stopped the train of greatness.
I was shocked by how much direction season 5 had upon rewatching it. Also I remember watching it on original airing and going nuts with them not explaining Dawn for several weeks.
It's a real credit to James Marsters and the writers that they were able to make Spike so fucking awesome despite all of the handicaps they saddled his character with over the years.
He's a badass awesome vampire.
Now he's in a wheelchair.
Now he has a chip in his head.
Now he's in love with Buffy.
Now he has a soul.
Now he's a ghost.
And yet...nothing stopped the train of greatness.
Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
So I guess this is the right spot to put this. Tomorrow night I'm going out to see a live showing of Dr Horrible! I'm so fucking geeked up for this
http://www.browncoattheatre.com
So I guess this is the right spot to put this. Tomorrow night I'm going out to see a live showing of Dr Horrible! I'm so fucking geeked up for this
http://www.browncoattheatre.com
KingPK
KingPK
Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
After watching them recently, I'd have to put 5 above 3 because it really had an amazing overall arc. Season 3 only started to pick up steam when Faith started to go "bad". The Gift alone makes the season the tops and, in retrospect, should have ended the series. I'm starting S6 now and the Scoobies bringing back Buffy just seems horribly selfish on their part.
After watching them recently, I'd have to put 5 above 3 because it really had an amazing overall arc. Season 3 only started to pick up steam when Faith started to go "bad". The Gift alone makes the season the tops and, in retrospect, should have ended the series. I'm starting S6 now and the Scoobies bringing back Buffy just seems horribly selfish on their part.
Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
So, followup report on dr horrible; it was just as amazing and awesome as I had hoped. The only scene that really suffered from being on stage was the whole van heist, and it almost running down Penny. Instead it became "that white wall totally almost hit me!". The Bad Horse singers were easily the best part of the show, just hilarious every time they popped out. It was basically 100% what the show was, but that's all I was hoping for.
So, followup report on dr horrible; it was just as amazing and awesome as I had hoped. The only scene that really suffered from being on stage was the whole van heist, and it almost running down Penny. Instead it became "that white wall totally almost hit me!". The Bad Horse singers were easily the best part of the show, just hilarious every time they popped out. It was basically 100% what the show was, but that's all I was hoping for.
KingPK
KingPK
Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
So I just finished a power run through S6 and yeah, it REALLY is a lot better than I remember it being. It's really dark and has one bad turn after another, but the acting is tremendous. Watching these episodes in order in quick succession really helps you pick up on everything a lot more clearly.
Now onto S7 and it's deus ex machina ending.
So I just finished a power run through S6 and yeah, it REALLY is a lot better than I remember it being. It's really dark and has one bad turn after another, but the acting is tremendous. Watching these episodes in order in quick succession really helps you pick up on everything a lot more clearly.
Now onto S7 and it's deus ex machina ending.
Sabre
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Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I always liked how Season 6 didn't have a "big bad" per-say, more in that the overall demon/monster that they had to fight was just life and how it can fuck shit up.
I always liked how Season 6 didn't have a "big bad" per-say, more in that the overall demon/monster that they had to fight was just life and how it can fuck shit up.
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Been re-watching Firefly on DVD and I had forgotten how great the characters were. Probably the best group of characters Joss put together with Nathan Fillion really standing out. I also had forgotten how cute and Woobie-ish Kaylee is as well as how sweet the Kaylee/Simon relationship is (although like any Whedon relationship, it starts off sort of testy/the male is making mistakes).
The episode Out of Gas is one of my favorites and the writing is just so sharp. There are just enough one liners to laugh at but it's a welcome change from the writing on Buffy and Angel.
Been re-watching Firefly on DVD and I had forgotten how great the characters were. Probably the best group of characters Joss put together with Nathan Fillion really standing out. I also had forgotten how cute and Woobie-ish Kaylee is as well as how sweet the Kaylee/Simon relationship is (although like any Whedon relationship, it starts off sort of testy/the male is making mistakes).
The episode Out of Gas is one of my favorites and the writing is just so sharp. There are just enough one liners to laugh at but it's a welcome change from the writing on Buffy and Angel.
Jingus
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Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
Angel had plenty of incredibly grim episodes which had very little comedy, so Out of Gas isn't alone there. But still, yeah, fuckin' awesome show. I happened to rewatch "Hearts of Gold" recently, which was one of my least-favorite episodes, and it still ruled.
Angel had plenty of incredibly grim episodes which had very little comedy, so Out of Gas isn't alone there. But still, yeah, fuckin' awesome show. I happened to rewatch "Hearts of Gold" recently, which was one of my least-favorite episodes, and it still ruled.
Ripper
I'll make your ass sense.
Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I'm watching season 5 of Angel again, and Hole in the World and Shells have some of the best acting I have ever seen on tv in it. Just amazing stuff by Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker
I'm watching season 5 of Angel again, and Hole in the World and Shells have some of the best acting I have ever seen on tv in it. Just amazing stuff by Alexis Denisof and Amy Acker
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Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I rewatched Firefly maybe 2 months ago, and it was like revisiting family. Love it. I was watching Angel season 5 a while back and that was such good television. I'm happy Filly and Boreanez are doing well with their other shows, but I miss them in Josses.
I rewatched Firefly maybe 2 months ago, and it was like revisiting family. Love it. I was watching Angel season 5 a while back and that was such good television. I'm happy Filly and Boreanez are doing well with their other shows, but I miss them in Josses.
Youth N Asia
Boners, and farts.
Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
The girlfriend has never seen all of Buffy before. Only bits and pieces. We went through the first 7 episodes today. My first time in over a decade seeing some of these. Wow, the music is dated, the fighting is bad, the special effects are laughable. Still digging it. Nice trip down memory lane. The Quality really picked up in season 2 though.
The girlfriend has never seen all of Buffy before. Only bits and pieces. We went through the first 7 episodes today. My first time in over a decade seeing some of these. Wow, the music is dated, the fighting is bad, the special effects are laughable. Still digging it. Nice trip down memory lane. The Quality really picked up in season 2 though.
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
Similar situation here, but we're up to the start of season 6 after a couple months at it. Season 4 stands out as much better than I used to think it was, and Clare Kramer was a much worse actress than I'd remembered. This is remarkable, because I remembered her as being quite bad.Youth N Asia said:
Youth N Asia
Boners, and farts.
Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I never hated on season 4 like so many others did. And I seemed to be in the minority for not loving Glory.
Also forgot how stalky Xander was and that they went to The Bronze in every episode in the beginning
I never hated on season 4 like so many others did. And I seemed to be in the minority for not loving Glory.
Also forgot how stalky Xander was and that they went to The Bronze in every episode in the beginning
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I always liked season 4, but in retrospect, it stands out as the show at its most effortless, when it wasn't bound by tons of rising plot action and was allowed to meander some. I think it's the funniest season and probably has overall the best ensemble cast of any of the seasons.
I always liked season 4, but in retrospect, it stands out as the show at its most effortless, when it wasn't bound by tons of rising plot action and was allowed to meander some. I think it's the funniest season and probably has overall the best ensemble cast of any of the seasons.
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
Yeah, I never understood the season 4 hatred either. There were some missed opportunities, they never did as much with Adam and his mother as I think they could've, but it did a good job in dragging the show out of its early teen years and introducing a more grownup feel. I liked the "well, we saved the world... again... now what?" sort of attitude towards everything. Also this was easily Xander's best season, what with his relationship with Anya and his interactions with Spike both being absolutely hilarious. The slow-motion slapfight with Harmony was one of the show's best moments ever.
EDIT: also, I finally finished the Season 8 comics recently... and that was some of the worst shit I've ever read in my life. From the point where they hooked up with Oz in Tibet and onward, it was like a parody of one of DC's big crossover events: a bunch of Biggest Battles Ever, stapled to a plot which made absolutely no sense at all. It didn't just insult your intelligence, it called your intelligence's mom a fucking whore.
Yeah, I never understood the season 4 hatred either. There were some missed opportunities, they never did as much with Adam and his mother as I think they could've, but it did a good job in dragging the show out of its early teen years and introducing a more grownup feel. I liked the "well, we saved the world... again... now what?" sort of attitude towards everything. Also this was easily Xander's best season, what with his relationship with Anya and his interactions with Spike both being absolutely hilarious. The slow-motion slapfight with Harmony was one of the show's best moments ever.
EDIT: also, I finally finished the Season 8 comics recently... and that was some of the worst shit I've ever read in my life. From the point where they hooked up with Oz in Tibet and onward, it was like a parody of one of DC's big crossover events: a bunch of Biggest Battles Ever, stapled to a plot which made absolutely no sense at all. It didn't just insult your intelligence, it called your intelligence's mom a fucking whore.
Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I've still never seen the last season I just lost interest and got more into Angel. I'll get around to it at some point I'm sure. I know we were supposed to hate Dawn or whatever but were we also supposed to hate Willow's lesbian lover because I couldn't stand her. I also didn't like Buffy's military boyfriend very much. From that point on Buffy was the least interesting part of the show to me.
I've still never seen the last season I just lost interest and got more into Angel. I'll get around to it at some point I'm sure. I know we were supposed to hate Dawn or whatever but were we also supposed to hate Willow's lesbian lover because I couldn't stand her. I also didn't like Buffy's military boyfriend very much. From that point on Buffy was the least interesting part of the show to me.
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
Doing another marathon run through Firefly and I actually find myself getting into (and liking) the periphery characters more, especially Wash. I had forgotten how much of a badass Wash turned into briefly at the end of War Stories.
I've also decided my two favorite characters are Simon and River along with their brother/sister relationship.
I'm also surprised at how many people had multiple episodes to their characters (Badger, Saffron, and Niska).
Doing another marathon run through Firefly and I actually find myself getting into (and liking) the periphery characters more, especially Wash. I had forgotten how much of a badass Wash turned into briefly at the end of War Stories.
I've also decided my two favorite characters are Simon and River along with their brother/sister relationship.
I'm also surprised at how many people had multiple episodes to their characters (Badger, Saffron, and Niska).
Youth N Asia
Boners, and farts.
Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
The girlfriend and my Buffying has slowed down. We were watching a ton while I was on Christmas break. We're about 10 into Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1. I'd forgotten how bad Angel was early on. Really took a whole season and then some to hit a stride.
I'd forgotten that Kal Penn was in the brutally awful episode Beer Bad. And Wentworth Miller from Prison Break was in Go Fish
The girlfriend and my Buffying has slowed down. We were watching a ton while I was on Christmas break. We're about 10 into Buffy season 4 and Angel season 1. I'd forgotten how bad Angel was early on. Really took a whole season and then some to hit a stride.
I'd forgotten that Kal Penn was in the brutally awful episode Beer Bad. And Wentworth Miller from Prison Break was in Go Fish
vivisectvi
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
Didn't Kal Penn also play some weird telekinetic with half of his brain showing in Angel, as well?
Didn't Kal Penn also play some weird telekinetic with half of his brain showing in Angel, as well?
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
Yeah. I want to say it was an episode that involved Cordelia and her visions specifically. Sometime around the "Billy" episode maybe?
Non Edit: The episode was "That Vision Thing" from the start of Season 3. Billy was also that season, airing 4 episodes later.
BUT FOR ME IT WAS TUESDAY said:
Yeah. I want to say it was an episode that involved Cordelia and her visions specifically. Sometime around the "Billy" episode maybe?
Non Edit: The episode was "That Vision Thing" from the start of Season 3. Billy was also that season, airing 4 episodes later.
Anakin Flair
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
See how I brought that back around to wrestling on a wrestling board?
As for Dawn, I never got the hate for her character until late in Season 7 when she kicks Buffy out of her own house. Buffy, the sister that DIED for her, and worked her ass off to KEEP said house. That was all kinds of stupid ans should have never happened.
The Season 8 comics pretty much killed all interest for me in Buffy. I read better fan fiction Season 8's back in the day (there used to be sites, Like Watchers, that released a new 'episode' every week, and they were really good reads). The comics are big steaming piles of shit.
Which lover are you talking about? If Tara, then no. If Kennedy, then yes. Or as most fans would say, Why HELL YEAH!TheMysteriousOne said:
See how I brought that back around to wrestling on a wrestling board?
As for Dawn, I never got the hate for her character until late in Season 7 when she kicks Buffy out of her own house. Buffy, the sister that DIED for her, and worked her ass off to KEEP said house. That was all kinds of stupid ans should have never happened.
The Season 8 comics pretty much killed all interest for me in Buffy. I read better fan fiction Season 8's back in the day (there used to be sites, Like Watchers, that released a new 'episode' every week, and they were really good reads). The comics are big steaming piles of shit.
Youth N Asia
Boners, and farts.
Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
The season 8 comic is just bad. They try and do way too much and it's just one WTF?! after another
The season 8 comic is just bad. They try and do way too much and it's just one WTF?! after another
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I knew Season 8 was gonna suck when I was going WTF? immediately within the first comic issue. It just went downhill from there. A lot of the problems are that 23-24 pages is simply too little space to do what Joss does best (develop characters through arcs and set up long term arcs) and grabbing a random single issue never felt like it was an "episode" in and of itself. They always came off as Act 1 or Act 2 or Act 3 if part of a 3 issue series.
Comics are simply not a good medium for Joss Whedon's (and his crew) type of script writing. I read the Firefly run and most of it was solid but it took 2-3 complete issues to simply feel like a full episode's worth plot wise.
I think I read Watchers briefly but fell in love more with Jet Wolf's "The Chosen" Season 8 & 9 run: http://www.btvschosen.com/s8/ep_free.php
- She made almost all the characters interesting and introduced a bevy of new characters who actually felt part of the canon after a while.
- She made KENNEDY into a decent, almost likeable! character. Stunning.
As for Dawn, I've always loved her character since the start. Michelle Trachtenburg tried but I think the writers simply didn't know how to handle or what to do with the character overall. One episode she'd be a fairly normal teenager (see the diary writing episode) and the next she'd be having a tantrum and being a whiny, insufferable punk. It will always bug me that the end of S6 set up potential character development only to have it literally wiped out by the start of the next season never to reappear again.
Also cutting her interactions with Spike (especially) and most of the others including Willow & Xander did nothing to help her character. I would've loved to have seen more Dawn/Spike interaction during Season 6, especially continuing after Buffy's revelation/break up but that never materialized. Come to think of it, we never really saw Dawn's reaction/coping to Tara's death either which really sucks considering Dawn's scene of sitting with the body was intense and Tara was a key mother figure in Dawn's life.
I knew Season 8 was gonna suck when I was going WTF? immediately within the first comic issue. It just went downhill from there. A lot of the problems are that 23-24 pages is simply too little space to do what Joss does best (develop characters through arcs and set up long term arcs) and grabbing a random single issue never felt like it was an "episode" in and of itself. They always came off as Act 1 or Act 2 or Act 3 if part of a 3 issue series.
Comics are simply not a good medium for Joss Whedon's (and his crew) type of script writing. I read the Firefly run and most of it was solid but it took 2-3 complete issues to simply feel like a full episode's worth plot wise.
I think I read Watchers briefly but fell in love more with Jet Wolf's "The Chosen" Season 8 & 9 run: http://www.btvschosen.com/s8/ep_free.php
- She made almost all the characters interesting and introduced a bevy of new characters who actually felt part of the canon after a while.
- She made KENNEDY into a decent, almost likeable! character. Stunning.
As for Dawn, I've always loved her character since the start. Michelle Trachtenburg tried but I think the writers simply didn't know how to handle or what to do with the character overall. One episode she'd be a fairly normal teenager (see the diary writing episode) and the next she'd be having a tantrum and being a whiny, insufferable punk. It will always bug me that the end of S6 set up potential character development only to have it literally wiped out by the start of the next season never to reappear again.
Also cutting her interactions with Spike (especially) and most of the others including Willow & Xander did nothing to help her character. I would've loved to have seen more Dawn/Spike interaction during Season 6, especially continuing after Buffy's revelation/break up but that never materialized. Come to think of it, we never really saw Dawn's reaction/coping to Tara's death either which really sucks considering Dawn's scene of sitting with the body was intense and Tara was a key mother figure in Dawn's life.
Youth N Asia
Boners, and farts.
Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
I never liked Dawn. We're in season 4 of re-watching. Maybe she'll be easier to deal with this time around.
I never liked Dawn. We're in season 4 of re-watching. Maybe she'll be easier to deal with this time around.
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Re: Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows
Doing a marathon of Angel and on the final 3 episodes of Season 1. Wow... this season was pretty rough sledding for the most part. Just very uneven with 3-4 average episodes for every 1 good one.
I've never been a fan of Kate and rewatching didn't really help any either. I also continue to prefer Wesley to Doyle every time too although I actually appreciated Doyle's character this go around much, much more than any time prior. I also really liked Cordelia's inclusion and she surprisingly meshes really well with Angel, Doyle, and later Wesley. I actually think her character (above being more developed) was naturally suited to a non-high school atmosphere.
Doing a marathon of Angel and on the final 3 episodes of Season 1. Wow... this season was pretty rough sledding for the most part. Just very uneven with 3-4 average episodes for every 1 good one.
I've never been a fan of Kate and rewatching didn't really help any either. I also continue to prefer Wesley to Doyle every time too although I actually appreciated Doyle's character this go around much, much more than any time prior. I also really liked Cordelia's inclusion and she surprisingly meshes really well with Angel, Doyle, and later Wesley. I actually think her character (above being more developed) was naturally suited to a non-high school atmosphere.