Joss Whedon Shows - Dollhouse, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly Discussion Thread

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Tonight's episode was a step forward, at least. Figures that a Minear/Solomon combo would bring some quality, compared to what we've been getting. The comedy was actually funny this time. "Topher has an ethical problem. Topher." "I don't even do this for my wife." And of course Victor as Kiki.

But still, they yet again repeated two of my least-favorite implausible plot devices. Firstly, why is the Dollhouse so goddamn easy to break out of? Don't they have any freaking security whatsoever? Secondly, hell, I described it perfectly last week, why not recycle my complaints like they're recycling twists:

Topher's pushing his imprinting skills and it backfiring on him.

But, that keeps happening. Over and over again. How many times has a doll malfunctioned, while Topher stammers "but that's impossible!"?

Is Fox saying "hell yes, we love dolls going crazy and escaping, keep doing more of that, plus also losing their memories in the middle of a mission, do more of that too"? Because it sure as hell feels that way, the same things keep happening. Of course, tonight's episode proved that you can sometimes do interesting new things with the same old twists, but still, there's only so many times you can patch over the same hole.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

The guy playing Victor is an incredibly talented actor. Usually, Whedon is good at taking medicore to average actors (Boreanaz, Gellar, Dushku) and adapting their talents to the material. Here, he's actually got someone who is amazingly talented and versatile and doesn't need to have his flaws hidden. Even if Dollhouse doesn't last, I'd like to see him in something else.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I haven't really noticed him as much, since he's usually doing something forgettable in the background, but yeah that Victor guy really is rather amazing. Up there with Acker in terms of sheer chameleon ability.

Man, I suck at remembering these actors' names for some reason, but can we get some more props for Boyd? I loved his seen-all-this-shit-too-many-times reaction shots. "Say what? You imprinted Victor with the mind of a serial killer and he's escaped? ...alright, just make sure to have dinner ready when I get home."

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

The cast is why I can't get down with this show.

Buffy, Angel, Firelfy...mostly absurd...but with great casts that you couldn't turn away from.

Dollhouse has a mostly terrible cast. I like maybe 3 people...hate the rest.

He's getting worse.

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Actually...now that I think about it... Dr. Horrible had a GREAT cast.

Fox must have fucked this up.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

It was a slightly better episode but as Jingus pointed out... WTH was up with the Topher does another mistake/Echo yet again loses her memory scenario?

I really like Eliza but I think Fox made the mistake of marketing Dollhouse centrally around her (much like WB was doing marketing Sarah as Buffy) when ideally, it'd be marketed around the ensemble cast. And the fact that they only promote it on Thursdays it seems. As others have also pointed out, there's nobody really likeable. November/Madeline was one of the few and she's gone and it actually feels a lot like the Firefly casting (Kailee was largely the only happy/likeable one character wise and the other characters were either unlikeable or shades of grey types) but the acting on Firefly was so great that it got overlooked.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Buffy, Angel, Firelfy...mostly absurd...but with great casts that you couldn't turn away from.

Dollhouse has a mostly terrible cast. I like maybe 3 people...hate the rest.

I don't hate most of 'em, but there is a definite lack of quality here compared to other shows. Eliza is just plain mediocre in the lead. This role demands a great actor, someone who can be compelling in a completely different part every single week, and she's just not up to it. The guy playing Ballard isn't very good in his part either, which is especially annoying since I've seen him be very, very good on Battlestar Galactica. The others are all at least competent, but the show spends so much freaking time on Someone Lost Their Memory And Escaped From The Dollhouse that we never get to know any of their characters.

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

For the record the 3 I like are DeWitt, Boyd and Victor. I liked Amy Acker too...but she's not a regular. Sierra is alright too. Better than Dushku.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I think Tahmoh Penikett is better when he's playing the straight up good guy, he doesn't seem comfortable playing the creepier aspects of Ballard's character.

Eliza's not great. Not embarrassingly bad, but she can only play versions of the same character. Although her accents are usually decent. Miracle Laurie is a terrible actress, actually worse than Eliza, but people are too busy praising her curves to notice (hey, I think she's the best looking woman on the show, but that doesn't mean she can act.)


The rest of them are either good or competent.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

We'll have to wait & see if this is good enough...

Dollhouse rose to a 1.0 adults 18-49 rating and 2.25 million viewers. That’s up from last week’s .8 (which rose to .9 in the final numbers) by 25%. Now we wait to see what happens on 10/23 since next Friday, 10/16 is the first round of the ALCS (baseball conference championships) on FOX.

 

[fairtoflair7]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just watched the first episode of the new season- thought it was OK but they def should have sort of explained where we left off last season as if a new viewer watches, they have no idea whats going on. (I've seen every episode) Interesting to see where it goes otherwise I enjoyed seeing Eliza in bra and panties. Could use more of that.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Somewhat promising...

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/dollhouse-shows-enormous-dvr-gains.html

Granted, the "Dollhouse" base was extremely low -- the show went from a 1.0 rating to a 1.5. Many other shows during premiere week obviously gained far more than a half a rating point. But executives often compare how much a show gained relative to its initial live-plus-same-day number, and to boost your rating by 50% is huge (by comparison, last season's "Dollhouse" premiere gain was 30%).

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/fox-we-will-air-all-13-dollhouse-episodes.html

Fox is insisting they're showing all 13 episodes. Joss says he's writing the 13th episode open ended, but with closure as well (so they're going to avoid a Sarah Connor Chronicles situation.)

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

In the spirit of the Sporcle thread in the Sports folder... I created a Buffy Villian Sporcle with 50 Villians in a 10 Minute Time Limit

Can You Name All 50 Villians?

Some are more common than others. TBH, I had a bit of a time trying to find 50 viable names.

I did the test myself and could only come up with 40/50 from memory.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just watched last night's episode (hurray for Tivo). Really Strong episode overall and the best of the series by far, IMO.

Spoiler

Loved the intermeshing of Sierra's backstory and character development, Topher beginning to develop a conscience and understand his overall role in his relationship with the Actives, and the beginning of the Topher/Adelle relationship. I also like that it seems from the Echo/Boyd scenes that the show is building itself towards the episode 13 season(?) finale so it should be a good run if the episodes maintain this quality.

According to TVByTheNumbers, the episode scored a 0.8 and averaged 2.147 Million viewers. Curious to see how the Tivo numbers stack up.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Why are you Spoilering it? I mean, it aired last night. Anyone who cares enough to read this thread would've seen it already.

Really good episode, and hey lookit the "directed by Jonathan Frakes", Riker's gettin' paid. But the ratings number is worrisome. And the fact that they just took a week off and are now taking a month off is even moreso.

As I watch this show, even the good episodes, I keep noticing how there's really nothing here to draw in casual fans. There's not much action, the plot is dense with backstory that you're required to know for it to make sense, and Fox's lame "Eliza is hot!" marketing campaign ain't gonna draw an audience. Even while I still watch and enjoy more often than not, it seems like the show doesn't have any kind of hook that would get channel-flippers to stop and watch.

 

[KOAB]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

This episode just confirmed what I always thought that Sierra (forgetting the actress name at the moment) should of been the lead for this show, while Eliza should be a supporting character. Good episode.

And I really hope this show lasts long enough so they can get into Boyd's character more. "Hey man... it's been a while. I'm gonna need The Goose... is he around?" Shit was so badass.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

When the hell are the new episodes airing again?

I finally got around to the two unaired shows from last season. Why did Fox reject the pilot? It seems identical to what happened with Firefly, they got a perfectly good pilot that perfectly explained the concept and the characters, and Fox just went "no, too ambitious and ambiguous, not enough motorcycle chases and parts where the audience cheers for Echo to win!" and ordered that awful "Train Job"-esque second pilot. At least Ballard's initial obsession with Echo makes a lot more sense, now that I know they sent her to kill him in the pilot.

"Epitaph One", on the other hand... yeah I can totally understand why they didn't want to air this. Firstly, it spoils the general plotline of, well, basically the entire run of the entire fucking show. Secondly, it's really confusing, even to someone who pays attention like myself; a casual viewer would be completely fucking lost in the first ten minutes and just tune out. Thirdly, damn it was bleak. It was an interesting direction to go with, but an incredibly nihilistic one. It'll be interesting to see if it remains officially "in canon" or not. I actually hope not, I wish the characters would get a somewhat happier send-off than that.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Whedon has said its cannon. He mentioned that the flashbacks may be questionable (people remembering things wrong) but that's what happens.

Anyway, I think everyone on the show seems resigned to the fact that's its gettIng cancelled (Fox are showing the rest of the episodes two at a time through December.) Whedon's says he's ending it with closure, but open ended enough that if a miracle happens it can still continue.

I'd say all around it was a positive: it had a few great episodes and provided Enver Gjokaj with a break out role (seriously, give this guy an Alias like spy show.)

It was also interesting in a show that was meant to be a star vehicle for Eliza Dushku, everybody noticed her co-stars instead. Not just the acting either; a lot of people seem have christened Miracle Laurie as the true sex bomb of the show. Dollhouse did prove to me that while Eliza has a lot of charisma and appeal, she just can't carry a show. Bot Fox are huge fans of hers, so they'll keep putting her in shows till it sticks.

 

[Matt Young]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

http://entertainment.pastapadre.com/2009/11/11/fox-cancels-dollhouse

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Well... at least Fox gave Dollhouse roughly 26 episodes total (since it'll air all 13 episodes of S2) before axing it compared to Firefly. Still makes me wonder WTF they were actually expecting when they picked it up after Season 1.

It was a very niche show, stuck on a horrible Friday timeslot, led in by a poor show starring Michael Strahan. Were they seriously expecting 1.5's and for non-viewers to suddenly latch onto the show instead of going out?

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Anyone else even remember that this was on tonight? They're doing double-shots of two episodes for the next few weeks, until the end of the series. The first episode was pretty good, nothing earth-shattering. But the second, oh goddamn the second, it perfectly illustrates why I wish this show could've tried to keep going. I don't know which part I loved best: Duelling Tophers (holy shit, is Victor the best comedy sketch actor you've ever seen in years or what?) or Summer Glau's fascinating new character, who seems kinda like if you crossed River with Fred and somehow ended up with a Bond villain as the result. Plus, Ray Wise, and that always makes anything instantly better. Even the general plot is getting better than before, aside from the curious notion that the various Dollhouse don't communicate with each other, for whatever damnfool reason.

Too bad it, y'know, still has Eliza Dushku failing to make me give a damn about the lead character. And was it just me, or did Echo suddenly get way, way smarter than she used to be over the course of this episode?

Motivation for watching next week: Alpha returns.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

The guy who plays Victor is really quite a find. His Topher impersonation was quite brilliant. And, yeah, the guy should maybe be on SNL or something now that Dollhouse is over.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Oh, man... the best thing about Victor's impersonation of Topher? He was even hitting the facial expressions! Just a genius, brilliant piece of acting on his part.

Also really enjoyed the River/Fred/Bond villain cross that was Summer Glau's character and after seeing her as River & Cameron, it was nice to see the actress actually given a chance to dialogue and act in a role that gave her some flexibility.

Curious to see where this whole "renewed" Echo/Ballard taking down the Dollhouse thing goes but yeah, more Alpha = win.

 

[Matt Young]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm just now watching last week's episodes. The twist with the senator was great, and I love Summer Glau's character already. It sucks that the show is ending so soon.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm watching season two of Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles and someone remind me, what was the story exactly regarding these two shows? I vaguely recall people saying that Terminator was cancelled in order to pay for Dollhouse, but that doesn't make sense looking at T:SCC's episodes, since they seem to have had a HELL of a lot more money spent on them than Whedon & co. did.

And truthfully Terminator seems easily to be the better show, considering the unfortunate lack of real quality episodes in Dollhouse's second season, to the point where I wish they'd cancelled the other show instead.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm beginning to wonder if the States shouldn't just switch to the British style of doing these shows. Ie: 13 episodes at a max of 2 or 3 seasons. It'd save a lot of bellyaching and headaches, that's for sure.. but then again, Hollywood does like to milk things for all they're worth and then some.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm watching season two of Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles and someone remind me, what was the story exactly regarding these two shows? I vaguely recall people saying that Terminator was cancelled in order to pay for Dollhouse, but that doesn't make sense looking at T:SCC's episodes, since they seem to have had a HELL of a lot more money spent on them than Whedon & co. did.

And truthfully Terminator seems easily to be the better show, considering the unfortunate lack of real quality episodes in Dollhouse's second season, to the point where I wish they'd cancelled the other show instead.

Terminator was done anyway. They were actually intending it to cancel it halfway through season 2 but WB talked Fox around, because they wanted the back nine to help publicize the terminator: salvation movie. But it was generally known the show was done by the middle of the second season (way before Dollhouse's renewal was even an issue.) But Josh Friedman backed out of telling anyone (even the actors thought it had a good chance of getting renewed) which made people think it was a toss-up. Truth is, Fox had lost a ton of faith in Friedman, and didn't even for a meeting where he would discuss creative plans for season 3 (which showrunners almost always get).

Re: the better show. It's worth noting that Terminator went from 20 million to 3 million viewers. So, something went wrong there. At least with Dollhouse, they never dropped a shockingly high amount of viewers (never gained any, mind, but that's beside the point).

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just found this out: http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2009/12/buffy-to-air-daily-on-mtvlogo.html

LOGO will be airing Buffy starting 1/1 (all day marathon) with additional airings at 6 PM, 7 PM, 2 AM, 3 AM, and weekend hours starting on 1/4.

MTV will also be airing Buffy at 11 AM on 1/10 with additional airings on weekdays at 11 AM.

Curious to see how the editing goes as I "fondly" remember FX lopping off my favorite scene in Season 5's Fool For Love (Spike stepping up and off the stack of wooden crates) while the group looks so dominant and cool.

 

[KOAB]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I really enjoyed the last two episodes. I'm surprised that I enjoy watching two hours of this at a time.