Joss Whedon Shows - Dollhouse, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly Discussion Thread

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I was thinking of blind buying this series, but before I bought it, was wondering if it would be a good idea? Is the show worth it?

It's a good show, solid enough concept. The character interaction is fun and the casting is great (Adelle... perfect!) in most areas. If you don't go in expecting too much, it's a solid first season. The first five episodes are slightly better than I remember them being and episode 6 on (esp. the final 3 episodes) are really quite strong.

It's a lot like Buffy's first season in that the episodes generally focus around an in plot storyline (engagements vs. MOTW in this case) but the early episodes mainly set the table for things that would occur later in the season, with episode 6 on really kind of kicking things up a notch arc wise until the final episode conclusion. One thing is that from episode one on, there is a somewhat greater sense of devotion to the season long arc that really pays off upon repeat "marathon" viewings. If you can find it for a low enough price, it's worth a blind buy.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

The Dollhouse Facebook page just posted a news bit that has some of the guest stars for next season...

Spoiler

Alexis Denisoff, Michael Hogan (aka Col Tigh on BSG) and Jamie Bamber. Also rumors of a Summer Glau appearance. Good shit, all around, IMO.

 

[Sabre]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Spoiler

yay for the guy who played wesley, i think hes awsome.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Finished season one, except Epitaph One.. as far as the official finale goes, I really liked it. I had no idea that

Spoiler

Alan Tudyk was going to turn out to be Alpha, but I kinda jokingly called it to my GF when he first showed up.. and then it happened and we were all WTF HEEL TURN?!

I really like the pace that this show goes at. I really only had a chance to see 2 episodes on TV when they aired - due to the terrible day/time slot - so I was pleased to see the way the writers and directors are able to make it feel like a slow burn arc but still make things move along at a fever pace.

The more I think about it the more I actually enjoy shorter seasons that run around 13-15 episodes as it feels like everything is more important and you don't run into the usual fodder episodes as much and there isn't as much "burn out" on the staff, I'd think.

Lost was better for it and I really think Dollhouse is too. I wonder if the second season will be the same length or if they've ordered a "complete" run of 22/23 episodes.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

More stuff from Whedon at ComiCon. Spoilered just in case.

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a169453/whats-next-for-dollhouse.html

Spoiler

Now that we've all hopefully seen episode 13 of Joss Whedon's Dollhouse, it's time to start thinking about round two. And, providing there are no further scheduling changes, the second season should be arriving in the US in a little over a month. (Dear Fox: let's not have a repeat of last year, please.)

In the climax to season one, Echo returned to the Dollhouse after a terrifying encounter with Alpha, who went back on the run; Ballard joined the Dollhouse staff and November returned to her normal life as Mellie. What next? Read on for details of what we know so far about season two.

Echo/Caroline: "We're gonna see that she is starting to grow, and everyone else is going to come apart a little bit," teased Whedon recently. "We're going to learn a lot more about her next season and she is a major factor in what happens to the Dollhouse in the coming years." Fran Kranz - aka Topher - added: "I've heard stuff about showing more of Eliza's character, Caroline - the real girl before she become Echo."

Ballard: Whedon revealed at Comic-Con that Ballard's obsession with Echo "is going to be tested because he's going to be in there with her - partially to protect her and also to find out what's really going on. You can gaze into the abyss, or you can live in it."

Others: Could Mr. Dominic be headed back to the Dollhouse this season? Kranz teased: "We sent Dominic to The Attic so I guess he could possibly come back... And he'd be angry!" Discussing the season as a whole, he added: "It cuts forward to the future and episode one of season two shows bits and pieces of that world. We certainly look ahead. And there are some flashbacks to before the show takes place, like in 13."

Speaking of episode 13 ('Epitaph One'), how will its bizarre events affect the show's future? Whedon promises that the show will be tailored to both those who have seen said episode and those who haven't. "We're fascinated by that world and its connection to this world and all the things we saw there," he said at this year's summer TCA Tour. Felicia Day, who appeared in 'Epitaph One', is said to making a reappearance for season two's opening episode - titled 'Vows' - and Battlestar Galactica's Jamie Bamber has been confirmed as a guest star.

And one final tease from Whedon: "...yes, we will be taking a trip to The Attic this season."

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

dubq go watch epitaph one. I think it was my favorite episode.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Just did (last night)! Was pretty damn awesome!! If that's the direction that the show is going in.. man, I can't wait to see how it gets there.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Also just watched Epitaph One and wow... really makes me hyped to see how Season 2 goes down (and compare events to what happened in E1).

Spoiler

The girl shooting the gun shocked the hell out of me!

Also watched the original pilot and am glad it got separated out into individual episodes. It helped better build the overall story arc and allowed for build up whereas the original pilot was seemingly hitting the viewer with "big" stuff right out of the gate.

 

[Mole]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I stopped watching the show after episode 5 or 6.

Should I bother watching the rest? Or is it just "meh?"

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Do it, Mole. It gets better. Especially once you get an idea of where they're going with the whole imprinting thing.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I stopped watching the show after episode 5 or 6.

Should I bother watching the rest? Or is it just "meh?"

Definitely continue. Episode 6 (Man on the Street) is where things start kicking off and steadily get better with each episode. Around Episode 8 (Needs) is when everything just rockets forward.

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

It's like a completely different (read: good) show after the halfway point.

And Harley...I am RIGHT FUCKING WITH YOU on that spoiler. I was surprised like I haven't been by anything in recent memory.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Fox have confirmed that Summer Glau has a large role in season 2, which is awesome.

info on her character

Spoiler

She'll start in episode 5, and play a character named Bennett who shares a past with Eliza Dushku's Echo and has a connection to another Dollhouse character

 

[Matt Young]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Dollhouse starts again on Friday. I'm excited for the new season, but I won't be able to watch the episodes until they put them up on the website. Since Smallville has moved to Fridays, I'll be recording that (they don't upload it to the CW site) and Smackdown.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Excellent, we actually get Smallville @ 8 and Dollhouse @ 9 on our affiliates up here. Finally I won't have to do all of this time-shifting shit to catch the show (Smallville; when it was on Thursdays last year).

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Very excited that the season's coming upon us. Curious to see how the shortened time (Changed from 51 to 42 minutes IIRC) and lower budget effects episodes, positively or negatively. Anybody know is Season 2 will be 12 episodes again or are they moving to the 22 episode format?

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Well. Of all the episodes I've ever seen... that was one of them.

-It was allegedly written and directed by Whedon, but it didn't feel like it. Anything Joss directs usually has a certain sort of... well, it's hard to describe, without resorting to amorphuous terms like "precision" or "elegance". This had nothing of the sort. Felt like any random episode of any random television show directed by any random 9-5er.

-Strange that for a show that's supposedly got its budget cut for the second season, they blew up a car. Not even for any particular reason, just because it's a primetime show on Fox I guess.

-Where did the "Saunders despises Topher with fiery passion" thing come from? Was there foreshadowing last season that I forgot? Her sudden Campaign Of Psycho Vengeance seemed like it really came outta nowhere. It was well executed, it was easily the best part of the episode, but it didn't feel like it had been properly set up.

-(Insert my usual Move Amy Acker Up To The Main Cast And Give Her More Screen Time comment here.)

-The mission-of-the-week part was pretty lame. So this was part of Ballard's deal which they didn't inform us about before? More than anything else in the world, the one thing he desperately wanted was... to arrest this one guy? If anyone can explain exactly how he turned Echo into Action Girl at the end, well, I'd say you're pulling it out of your ass because on the show it made no sense whatsoever.

-Next week's preview looked much fucking lamer. They're already kinda beating this "Echo has brain problems during the mission" type of plot into the ground.

-Anders and Apollo fighting over a chick again. Man, won't those guys ever learn.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Didn't bother with next week's preview but as for Dr. Saunders...

There were subtle hints last year that Saunders had at least a dislike for Topher and conveyed it several times whether it be through body gesture or speaking up to Boyd/Adele about the Actives (Needs IIRC). I think her learning about being an Active/Whiskey herself kinda pushed her over the edge of strong dislike into full hate.

I liked the episode well enough although I didn't care much for the plot. I enjoyed the character interaction (Saunders/Topher especially) although I'm already getting concerned that we'll see a bit of a Boyd/Ballard/Echo type triangle throughout the season.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/09/26/tv-ratings-dollhouse-brothers-bomb-on-fox-cbs-wins-night/28502


2.57 millions viewers. (It actually lost viewers from Brothers!)

I'm actually not blaming Fox since at least they tried. They can't help it if people would rather watch generic cop shows and reality television. I'm really worried we won't get to see the 13 episodes, and they'll stop half way through like Tru Calling.

That said, everyone was convinced it was going to get cancelled after season 1, so maybe it still has a chance. And the low budget helps a lot. But, really, I think everyone was hoping it would gain from word-of-mouth and become a cult hit. Which hasn't happened. Going up against Smallville likely didn't help.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm not surprised, honestly. The first half of last season gave people very little reason to keep watching. By the time it got good, it was already too late. And now, they seem to have regressed again. Seriously, if you weren't already a Whedon fanboy: if you tuned into the show for the first time last night, would you bother to keep watching? Aside from Topher/Saunders, there wasn't much to grab the attention, and Topher/Saunders relied on your foreknowledge of last season's backstory.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Also given the timeslot, Friday at 9 PM, and the overall theme of the series, it'd be a hard sell to most average people anyway to watch it live.

If I were Fox, I'd be fairly pleased that they remained around almost a 2.6 total although there's still Live + DVR to keep an eye on (my parents Tivo the episodes and then watch them on Saturday). One of the things that hurts Dollhouse is that most of its true viewership isn't live but through DVR as seen by this tidbit from TVBytheNumbers.

Fox’s surprise show renewal Dollhouse had the largest share of its viewing by DVR for the 2008-9 season; 41% for the adults 18-49 demo and 32% for viewership overall.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/10/03/tv-ratings-dollhouse-dips-to-a-new-series-low/29376


It does look really bad. But the guy over at the Behind the Screens blog (who is a genuine insider: he was saying last year that Dollhouse was getting renewed even though every tv critic and reporter said there wasn't a chance and has a great track record for tv info) says that not only are Fox about to pick it up for a back nine, but are fine with the ratings for what they consider a competitive Friday night. Although, there are a lot of conflicting reports from people who think it will be yanked after the next episode.

The case for it is that despite what everyone thinks: the show has been, and will likely remain profitable: it's incredibly cheap to make (much, much less than a $1 million per episode, most shows are between $2 or $3 million). They've kept Til'Death for similar reasons.


I still wouldn't be surprised if they cancelled it, but its cheap cost is a huge advantage and is why I can see it possibly sticking around. They already built the most expensive thing (the dollhouse set) and you can tell they really are cutting back this season: They have, like, one guest star a week, and large parts of the episode are now the characters just sitting around the Dollhouse talking. Most shows do an episode like that when they run out of money (remember that 24 episode where Jack and the others where stuck in an office?) Dollhouse is doing that every week.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

With episodes like the one they had last night, they'll take those ratings and like it. Man that was lame. Recycled plot that's been done in prior episodes plus nonsensical stupidity plus a whole bunch of gaping plot holes equals bad times at the dollhouse. It's like the shitty first part of season 1 all over again.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I think Eliza's getting better as an actress. I thought it was largely fine, and is still a long way away from the "Echo is a backing singer" episode which I'm convinced will now live in infamy as the worst Joss Whedon related thing ever (yes, even more so than Alien 4.) Topher used to annoy me, but he's probably the best thing in it now.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Beer Bad says hello... Joss apologized for it on the Buffy Season 4 DVD! I wasn't that enamored with the plot but I did like seeing small hints to the future with Topher's pushing his imprinting skills and it backfiring on him. I liked getting the glimpse of Adele's treatment of post-Dollhouse people (Madeline/November) as well.

Still kind of wonder how Alexis' character has all this stuff but the Dollhouse is supposedly this underground system. Ballard finds it in Season 1.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

But the plot holes, o the plot holes!

-Why did this guy even hire a doll for his baby's surrogate mother? All of the doll assignments have traditionally been short-term gigs, a week or two at the most. To actually be effective for this kind of thing, he'd need to have a mother around for month after month, if not years.

-And why bother paying double for Sierra too? Just for a friend for the "mom" to hang out with? Why? When it would cost half as much to just say "and by the way, make her kind of a hermit type who doesn't need to go outside or have friends" in the planning stage? It seemed needlessly complicated and was just an excuse to shoehorn Sierra into the episode.

-Why was DeWitt acting like such a bitch to the customer? "Yes, our doll did indeed kidnap your infant son and run away... you fucking asshole! It's 100% your fault. You don't get your money back, you don't get an apology, you don't even get a coupon for your next purchase." With public relations like that, it's a wonder they have any repeat business at all.

-Where the fuck was Boyd? Not only is he head of security, he's always had protective feelings towards Echo. No way he wouldn't be in on the rescue mission. They didn't even offer a token explanation as to why he wasn't there.

-The explanation for why the code words didn't work and why the wipe wouldn't take is just bullshit. "The maternal instinct" somehow overrules brainwashing which completely annihilates your entire personality? Bullshit bullshit bullshit! Didn't buy that for a single second. Especially considering that the brainwashing was enough in the past to make November forget about her actual child.

-In the police station, Ballard didn't even try to use the "treatment" code phrase. No, it was much more subtle to drag this screaming madwoman out of the building by force. We found out after the commercial break that the code words weren't working anyway, but they really should've shown him trying the phrase as soon as he got near her. Made him look like an idiot for doing it the hard way instead.

-Blank-Slate Echo somehow has enough martial arts skill to knock out a grown man with one punch?

-The ending was just retarded. Blank-Slate Echo is such a dumbass that she'll get in a car and verbally tell it to "go" (which was admittedly funny)... yet she's somehow smart enough to break out of the high-tech superprison? And how did she find the guy's house if her memory was wiped so much that she can't even remember the baby's name? And how the fuck did she get there so quickly that DeWitt didn't even have time to call the customer before Echo arrived?

So yeah, this was absolutely ever bit as stupid as the Backup Singer episode. It didn't have that one awful bit of unintentional humor that episode did with the chairshot, but still, pretty damn bad.

Topher's pushing his imprinting skills and it backfiring on him.

But, that keeps happening. Over and over again. How many times has a doll malfunctioned, while Topher stammers "but that's impossible!"? They've clearly said that there's a shitload of Dollhouses in the world, so it's not like he's the inventor of this technology or the only guy capable of programming it. Why haven't they fired his ass already and gotten a more competent replacement? The answer is, sadly, "because he's a funny character who's here to stay and Fox doesn't seem to mind running similar plots over and over again".

I liked getting the glimpse of Adele's treatment of post-Dollhouse people (Madeline/November) as well.

I did like that part. So far, the Brief Subplot Revisiting Old Backstory sections of this season are way, way more interesting than the Generic Mission Of The Week main plots.

Still kind of wonder how Alexis' character has all this stuff but the Dollhouse is supposedly this underground system. Ballard finds it in Season 1.

Hey, yeah, did they ever reveal who was leaking the info to Ballard? Dominic was implied to be behind some of it, but I can't see him re-programming an imprint like what happened when Echo gave Ballard the secret message in the Chinese restaurant fight.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Yeah... I think this show is finished after all. At least going by a lot of the twitters from the writers/actors. Dichen Lachman had possibly the most pathetic "save our show" appeal of all time.

everyone play dollhouse on www.hulu.com even if you have seen it just play it in the background. x & RT please

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Here's a quote from a guy named "Chris" who presumably works at Fox...

God, I can’t say who I am (publically) but here’s what I know and I will stand by this and bet money it will be confirmed:

There was a meeting today in which staff were basically told ratings need to go UP in order to get a hold and come back on the 23rd, stay the same and they’d consider.. though likely haitus, and if it goes down, it’s out.

Advertisers were basically told that as far as month-by-month ad-buy ins for the network Fox’s schedule has some changes in it, including Fox being TBA for Friday nights after the 23rd.

Fox is concerned that the problem with Dollhouse isn’t fixable, and that they believe that they might have better options Friday night.

That includes a lot of talk about rotating “Glee” to a repeat on Friday night to give it a double-viewing for a while to pickup steam in a show it really believes in, and that it sees as a potential money train.

I think I'm more annoyed that Fox picked it up for Season 2 and will likely axe it after only airing 3 episodes of Season 2, rather than just outright canceling last year and saving this drama. Gotta feel bad for the writers and the actors who likely were all set to do 12-13 episodes and now have a possibility of again being out of work.

Also Dollhouse won't air on 10/16 so Friday's showing will be important to whether it returns for the 10/23 airing or not.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Brutal.. do they even realize that Friday is pretty much a death sentence for shows like this? Their fucking target audience is most likely out and getting sloshed, of course the fucking ratings are low.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Brutal.. do they even realize that Friday is pretty much a death sentence for shows like this? Their fucking target audience is most likely out and getting sloshed, of course the fucking ratings are low.

Another way of looking at it is that it had low expectations on a Friday night, which probably helped it get a second season since it was never expected to do that well anyway. So, Fox could justify renewing it when it was getting 3 or 4 million viewers.

Honestly, I think if Dollhouse had went on the Monday slot before 24 like was originally planned, it would have been finished a lot sooner. It's a cult show that's going to get six or seven million viewers at most (which isn't really okay for any night other than Friday.) Sci fi shows generally do okay on Friday's anyway (Medium, X files, Stargate.) Dollhouse just has problems that can't solved by mere broadcasting issues: Eliza Dushku can't carry a show, and contrary to what the advertisers think, she can't get people to watch just solely on how hot she is, most of the characters are unsympathetic, and, as others have pointed out, there are a lot of inconsistencies and plot holes.

If I can do some fantasy booking here: I would have made the show about Paul investigating them and the new technology. I may have kept Eliza but she would have been a supporting character at best, and the show would have been about a battle of wits between Adele and Ballard.

Joss and Fox's fixation on Eliza probably killed the show. There are other reasons, but if I had to pick the main thing, that's it.