Joss Whedon Shows - Dollhouse, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly Discussion Thread

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

It's pretty obvious they're rushing through 5 seasons worth of storylines in the second half of the season. It's actually really great. It makes you realize how many episodes of tv shows are nothing but filler.

 

[KOAB]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I wonder how much time has passed when it comes to the show. Didn't they say Echo was gone for like six months or something. I'm pretty sure they also implied Ballard was in the coma for a few months. I wonder how many filler episodes there would have been if this show was a hit.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Yeah... it's like everything is on fast forward, which is actually working out for the best since there really can't be an obvious filler episode in regards to plot development. Every episode's been rather tight although I was feeling the second episode more than the Victor/Anthony one. I've also been enjoying the 2 hour windows and loved getting some insight into what the attic really is/was.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I wonder how much time has passed when it comes to the show. Didn't they say Echo was gone for like six months or something. I'm pretty sure they also implied Ballard was in the coma for a few months. I wonder how many filler episodes there would have been if this show was a hit.

Whedon intially said he had a five year plan so...

season 2: Perrin story and Rossum invading the government.
season 3: Echo on the run/Echo's character coming together.
Season 4: The attic/finding out Rossum's secrets.
season 5: trying to stop the the technology going crazy and ending civilisation.

Victor and Sierra's relationship is also ridiculously rushed. And I'm pretty sure Topher would have taken longer to become a more moral person (he's become a total good guy really quickly). I also think there would have been more on Boyd and his backstory.


It makes you think what would have happened if they'd cancelled lost near the end of season 2 or 3, and given the writers 3-4 episodes to wrap it up. Hey, it might have been better since at least we wouldn't have had to put up with these useless backstories and relationship "drama" just to get some answers.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Interesting...

Logo's run on 1/1 is starting with 2.06 Reptile Boy through 2.22 Becoming Part 2 for Buffy.

1/2 then has Go Fish and Killed By Death at 6 PM/7 PM ET

Nothing is airing on 1/3.

I can understand starting with S2 for the Angelus arc and the fact that it's their first full season (i.e. they can get 18 hours' worth of episodes) but I wouldn't have minded if they kind of do what TNT does and had Season 1 aired for 12 hours and then 2.01 - 2.06 as their marathon before airing the 2.07 episode on the next night at 6 PM/7 PM.

1/4 they have S4's Hush and Doomed on at the 6/7 slot.
1/5 they have S6's Once More, With Feeling on the 6 slot (edited obviously).

Looks like Logo's just trying to air arguably (I prefer S3) the best season and then the most proclaimed episodes of the series as a way to try and pull viewers in to the station/show.

How would you set up the show for its initial airing with the idea that you're trying to hook/introduce viewers to the show?

18 Hours - 6 Season 1 Episodes, 12 Season 2 Episodes
- Season 1: 1.01 WTTH/1.02 The Harvest (Introduces Buffy and Crew along with The Master and Angel), 1.06 The Pack (Sets up the Willow/Buffy/Xander relationship triangle and foreshadows 1.12), 1.07 Angel (Sets up the Buffy/Angel relationship and features Angel/Darla), 1.10 Nightmares (A highlight of S1 and includes a Buffy/Master scene), 1.12 Prophecy Girl for obvious reasons.
- Season 2: 2.01 When She Was Bad (Follows up on The Master), 2.03 School Hard (Introduces Spike/Drusilla), 2.06 Halloween (Includes a Buffy/Spike scene and is fun), 2.07 Lie To Me (Sets up Angel/Drusilla/Spike), 2.08 The Dark Age (Sets up Giles history and Giles/Jenny), 2.13 Surprise/2.14 Innocence (Introduces Angelus), 2.15 Phases (Sets up the Willow/Oz relationship), 2.16 Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered (Funny episode that focuses on Xander and includes an Angel/Drusilla scene), 2.17 Passion (Turns Angelus into a major asshole. Jenny's death means something for viewers), 2.21/2.22 Becoming Parts 1 and 2 (Wraps up Season 2).

Basically hits all of the key points while setting up several relationships without making the viewer too confused: Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz, Xander/Cordelia sorta..., Spike/Drusilla/Angelus, and Giles/Jenny

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Okay, that was a great twist. Better than anything on Lost.


Although the change in Glau's character (from evil geek to good girl) was far too quickly done and it was really obvious how fast they're now rushing it.

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Agreed. But I think this show has gotten excellent as we approach the end.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Also agreed but part of the entertainment of the rush job that's going on is that with the storyline it has now, everything really does have that immediate/full throttle vibe which is helping.

Though

Spoiler

the gunshot

was another unexpected stunner moment. And the twist at the end was really great and makes that whole relationship more interesting in hindsight.

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

In hindsight it makes so much sense...but you'd never think to think about it.

The only way it could have been better is if it came at the end of year 7.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Ill give them credit and say that twist was always planned. And it would have been way more awesome in season 5 or something.

And it does make sense.

Spoiler

There were always questions surrounding Boyd. Why would such a nice guy who appears to have morals work there? His past was never cleared up either. I used to think he was under-written but it seems they deliberately kept a lot of mystery about him.

Caroline is still an incredibly annoying character though, and it's probably a relief we never saw much of her. Although, at least they seem to know how selfish she looks, and have written it in. A whiny eco-terrorist is not a good character to build a show around.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Found this quote...

At today's TCA sessions, Kevin Reilly, Entertainment President for Fox Broadcasting, gave the final word on DOLLHOUSE and why it kept the show on the air, despite its early Second Season cancellation.

“We committed to thirteen episodes,” admits Reilly. “We told Joss going in, we’re going to air these. For whatever good moves we made in the fall. Friday isn’t the finest move of the night. Back to the drawing board on Friday’s. Dollhouse is a good show, it had a run, but obviously, that’s that.”

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I just finally caught up with the past few episodes.

-I had a bad feeling all through the final Topher/Bennett scenes. I sat there just going "okay, this is a Joss Whedon show, and he hates giving the cute couple a happy ending... hey wait a minute, why is Saunders acting all creepy and holding her hands behind her back?" Then BANG and I actually said "Dammit, Joss!" out loud. It's not like we would have been getting years more of that character anyway, but still annoying.

-Boyd? Seriously? Even in the middle of the last episode, I did kinda wonder why they'd never addressed his backstory at all, but at the moment the twist doesn't make sense. I'm sure they'll explain it, but right now I don't get it at all.

-Anyone else feel that having seen Epitaph One kinda hurts some of the suspense? I mean, we know for a fact that certain cast members are still gonna be around several years in the future, so it's difficult sometimes to get worried over a character who is definitely not going to die in this particular fight.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Bump. Series finale's tonight. And on my local Fox affiliate it's being aired one hour earlier than normal, 7:00 central, so you might wanna check and see if yours is doing anything wacky as well.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

A guy over at Time Magazine was doing a review of 2009's televison and had a good quote, which sums up the series for me: "Dollhouse failed better than most shows than succeed."

Yeah, there was some medicore episodes, but when it was good, it was utterly fantastic and better than what you'll find in 95% of sci-fi shows.

Now I'll just sit back and wait for the inevitable reboot in a few years.

 

[Jingus]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Well. That was a Whedon Finale alright. Callbacks (too many to count), surprises (Alpha?!), and closure (pretty much every character). Also, I'm glad they somehow managed to take the incredibly bleak world of Epitaph One and somehow twist it into a (possibly) happy ending. And I'm glad to see Zack Ward and Felicia Day getting more work. "She's a tech-head, Mag... she's a girl, Mag!"

...that being said, after the end, the Boyd swerve still makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. Why would the founder of the company randomly decide to become a handler of this one chick, when all he really needed from her was a spinal tap? Especially since after the reveal, he acted like he was literally a completely different person. That's one thing this show never really had, one great central villain high up in the Rossum corporation. Which is especially sad considering they had Ray Wise standing right there and didn't really do anything with him.

"Dollhouse failed better than most shows than succeed."

I'm so stealing that quote.

 

[RavishingRickRudo]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Pretty standard Whedon finale. Main characters killed, check. Self-sacrificing, check. Someone telling the person doing the self-sacrificing that they "don't have to do this" which is met with some sorta smarmy reply, check. I woulda liked Echo to stay inside the fantasy world where they make her ending a bit darker.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Whedon should try to shop a show to the CW network. They seem to be "genre friendly" again with all the love that Supernatural & Smallville get.

With all the coin that vampires are generating these days, I'd love to see him revisit the "Slayer Universe," maybe with the Fray storyline.

 

[Anakin Flair]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Whedon should try to shop a show to the CW network. They seem to be "genre friendly" again with all the love that Supernatural & Smallville get.

With all the coin that vampires are generating these days, I'd love to see him revisit the "Slayer Universe," maybe with the Fray storyline.

While it would be interesting, it would suck on a TV budget methinks. Plus, Joss whouldinevitably find some way to bringfucking HARMONY into the series, and then I'd have to kill someone.

 

[atticus Chaos]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Pretty standard Whedon finale. Main characters killed, check. Self-sacrificing, check. Someone telling the person doing the self-sacrificing that they "don't have to do this" which is met with some sorta smarmy reply, check. I woulda liked Echo to stay inside the fantasy world where they make her ending a bit darker.

I kind of thought that was strongly hinted at. Particularly in the last scene. Her work is done; she's not going to be needed to help to rebuild the world. She has no place in the normal world, and now she's done fighting, she's probably going to withdraw into herself.

RE: Whedon. He has a meeting with some FX people recently. So that seems to be where he's headed.

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I'm rewatching Buffy from the beginning and have made it to season 7.

My main thought on the show is that Tara and Willow are horrible, horrible people. They have the nerve to tell Buffy to get a job almost immediately when she comes back from the dead in season 6. Neither of these dykes make a dime, live in her fucking house, and have squandered all of the money Joyce left when she died.

I'm of the opinion that Willow only ressurected Buffy because they were running out of money.

That cunt.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Considering that Tara and Willow were both in college for roughly 3 seasons at least (Season 4, Season 5, and Season 6?) you'd think one of them could've maybe gotten a side job as well? Presumably if they could continue to attend UC Sunnydale, they could use a job to either help pay off later loans (on top of whatever financial aid they could maybe get) or something.

UC Irvine Tuition if living at home: $21,804
UC Los Angeles Tuition for In State: $26,088
UC Santa Barbara In State: $27,257

That's all for 2010 so it was presumably less from 2000-2002. Also Joyce was able to continue paying off the mortgage while running an art gallery, sending her oldest daughter to UC Sunnydale, and dealing with her youngest daughter in high school in Season 5. It shouldn't require that high of a paying job for Tara or Willow to find to help pay.

The only thing I can think of to explain the "money" is that Giles/Spike/maybe Xander were all contributing some sort of financial payment to help Buffy out.

 

[Molotov The Bear]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I always thought they worked at the Magic Box.

 

[Sabre]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I thought they only scoobie'D there. Anya seemed to be the only one making a profit from the place.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I thought they only scoobie'D there. Anya seemed to be the only one making a profit from the place.

Likewise. Well, even when they "helped" I always thought of it as general free service. They usually didn't really do much (partly thanks to Anya's need to control the money) aside from moving boxes or unpacking items. Buffy's sole attempt I assume was paid for but I'm sure she just helped for free after.

Although I do remember Willow attempting to gift wrap an item and Anya stepping in to do it instead but I don't think Willow would've been paid regardless.

 

[Sabre]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Im really wanting to sit down and watch all the series again, but i remember some eps being a complete chore. I wonder if season 4 is as dull as i remember.

 

[bps21]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

If you've watched practically any hour long in the last decade... Season 4 suddenly becomes great TV. I didn't even hate the bad episodes like Beer Bad and Doublemeat Palace in this run through. I just forgot how great this show was.

 

[Sabre]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Double Meat Palace makes me hungry.

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

Season 4 is really solid when you re-watch it but it's just that some of the other seasons were just so great overall.
- Buffy trying to bounce back from her relationship with Angel and evolving into a new relationship with Riley
- Willow's evolution both in magic and relationship (the Willow/Oz/Veruca/Tara story)
- The Xander/Anya relationship starts picking up steam
- Faith's return and subsequent leaving to Angel's show for a fun 4 part arc

Part of the problem is that S4 was coming on the heels of arguably the two best seasons of Buffy, which were back to back. The Initiative was an interesting idea but wasn't quite pulled off in part due to characterization and general story (similar to S7 IMO). Also the incoming characters weren't nearly as fleshed out as past characters who appeared (Compare Veruca/Tara/Miss Walsh/Riley's in season evolution to S3 with Faith/The Mayor or S2 with Spike/Drusilla/Oz).

The individual episodes (Fear Itself, Pangs, Something Blue, Hush, This Year's Girl/Who Are You?, and Restless) all tend to overshadow the main story. It's really a lot like S2 in that regard.

What's interesting about S2 is how great the Angelus character was written (and acted). He has a large role in just 5 episodes with brief cameos in BBB, Killed By Death, and Go Fish.

 

[vivisectvi]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

As much as I really didn't like Riley and the Initiative, I actually really liked Season 4 as a whole. The finale, Restless, has to be my favourite outside of the Gentlemen. The part where Riley and Human Adam run off to build a fort is great.

 

[AndrewTS]

Amalgamated Whedon - Dollhouse and previous, better shows

I didn't even hate the bad episodes like Beer Bad and Doublemeat Palace in this run through.

OH NO YOU DI-INT!!

But yeah, Beer Bad is horribly anvilicious.