Kamala's Random WCW Bullshit thread

[BruiserBrody]

The old, injured guy. Solid pick.
At least he had all the WCW stink on him that would be needed to put the angle over.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Thunder podcast I listen to has an interesting theory. They might have taken it from somewhere else in the IWC but they say there’s the Four Horsemen of the WCW Apocalypse. It’s SID, Shane Douglas, Jeff Jarrett and Vince Russo.

It’s a solid list but I don’t think I agree with first two. I don’t think SID did anything to hasten WCW’s demise. He had a few of the cooler matches in ‘99 and on WCW and provided a lot of great unintentional comedy.

Shane Douglas isn’t relevant or memorable enough to get more than minor credit in WCW’s demise. Yeah, the ‘99-‘01 run is mediocre as all get out but he definitely is not in my bottom 5 late era WCW regulars, probably not even bottom 10.

I’d replace them with Eric Bischoff and The KISS Demon. Or maybe David Arquette? Singles Brian Knobbs deserves a shoutout as someone emblematic of how shitty ‘99-‘01 WCW was. Maybe heel Rick Steiner? Mark Madden even?

Point is a lot of people that more to blame than our man SID!

 

[BruiserBrody]

Thunder podcast I listen to has an interesting theory. They might have taken it from somewhere else in the IWC but they say there’s the Four Horsemen of the WCW Apocalypse. It’s SID, Shane Douglas, Jeff Jarrett and Vince Russo.

It’s a solid list but I don’t think I agree with first two. I don’t think SID did anything to hasten WCW’s demise. He had a few of the cooler matches in ‘99 and on WCW and provided a lot of great unintentional comedy.

Shane Douglas isn’t relevant or memorable enough to get more than minor credit in WCW’s demise. Yeah, the ‘99-‘01 run is mediocre as all get out but he definitely is not in my bottom 5 late era WCW regulars, probably not even bottom 10.

I’d replace them with Eric Bischoff and The KISS Demon. Or maybe David Arquette? Singles Brian Knobbs deserves a shoutout as someone emblematic of how shitty ‘99-‘01 WCW was. Maybe heel Rick Steiner? Mark Madden even?

Point is a lot of people that more to blame than our man SID!

WTF? How did the jabronis even warrant consideration? Or was the damage done by the Hogan/Nash backstage politics/booking considered moot by Russo destroying the brand with 23 world title changes in one year or whatever the count was at?
I guess the basis is people we saw on TV during the dying year and a half? Even then the ghost of Hulkamania feuding with Flair and Luger feels more problematic than trying to make the 1986 rookie class of Scott Steiner/Jarrett/Sid the featured players. (Flair/Luger/Hogan 2000 are a better answer to this than Knobbs' harmless hardcore fun IMO)
The Harris Boys being the top heel team under Russo as Creative Control and the Nashville World Order was a major sign that the tag division was DOA (heh).
Broken down Rick Steiner being in the mix on top didn't work, but I don't think we can blame WCW too much since his was part of a legendary tag team for 9 years and his partner was moving up the card, so keeping the other half around SHOULD work to an extent. Maybe Rick should have taken over Buff's spot as Scott's lackey and worked less big time spots?
Arquette/Leno are certainly fine examples of WCW celebs gone wild, and having a geek comedian win the WORLD FUCKING TITLE should just be more fuel for Russo's induction as WCW's executioner.
The new blood guys still feel to me a lot like the AWA 1989 where suddenly a bunch of nobodies with good bodies are thrust into prominent roles in short order. (Tommy Jammer, Johnnie Stewart, Del Wilkes, Enos, Bloom, Scott Norton, etc) AWA 89 had their version of Hogan/Flair/Luger with Baron/Larry Z/Wahoo/Patera being the old fucks on top who aren't drawing. And AWA 89 had their version of Shane Douglas as slightly older established midcarder being over pushed with the top guys (Tom Zenk) and AWA 89's Booker T was Paul Diamond (Top tag team star splits and gets moved up to main event level)

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Ya. You WOULD like singles Brian Knobbs!

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1682933555490623488

@BruiserBrody wipes away tear.

 

[Gert]

I got pretty excited when I saw this topic on my work computer earlier today!

Bischoff and Russo have to be on there for sure. I think other receiving votes have to be:

Hulk Hogan
Kevin Nash
Kevin Sullivan
Jeff Jarrett
Jim Herd

I think the Sid, Shane Douglas, and even Jeff Jarrett ones are tough because I never thought I wouldn’t watch WCW anymore because there’s too much Sid and Shane Douglas on my TV.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Ooh. Kevin Sullivan is a great pick that I forgot. His ‘00 creative run was brief but it had devastating effects on the company. Fact that WCW was so insistent on having a burnt out yes man lead creative that they let four of their best wrestlers go is still bizarre to me 23 years later. Rey Mysterio was never really the same after that in WCW either, besides the few weeks of the cruiserweight tag team division near the very end of the company.

If we’re being real though, the four horsemen of the WCW apocalypse are Bischoff, Russo, Jamie Kellner, and the AOL-Time Warner merger.

 

[Valeyard]

Sid absolutely deserves no blame. His return made me interested, even if the Millenium Man shit was lame, and there was an odd level of compelling things surrounding him both good and bad. Outside of Sid being Sid, I feel like he got used extremely well and definitely had his place, but that isn't to say he was worth watching then either. Like I put his run up there with Luger's 1999-2001 run for similar reasons.

Douglas wasn't important enough and I think it was still in an era where ECW was a different audience (especially from that era of WCW) to matter. Even then he was on the decline and the one match worth anything --with Flair-- was nixed so he's probably lucky he got the run he did. Could've done more, though. Like Christian's current run is the run Douglas should've had. I don't think the majority of the audience cared or were made to care one way or the other.

Now Jarrett, him I believe was symbolic of the problem because he was Russo's guy. Chosen one and all that. Midcard to a fault but pushed harder than guys like Bret or the vanilla midgets right out the gate for no reason other than being a bro. I remember when he left I was happy because I hated him so much (everything aside, man was I happy at the notion of trading Jericho for Jarrett) and it wasn't like, as a midcarder, he'd have been a bad fit. Him doing his chosen one shit and never cracking past the US title? Awesome, go for it. But I remember watching Nitro where they recapped him winning the title and laughed so fucking hard that I don't know if I watched it again until the last one. He and Russo are the same, but he only existed because of Russo.

Sullivan and Nash, the Summer of Suck, that deserves a spot. Cooled literally everything when everywhere else was at its hottest, put on the most boring fucking shows you can concieve of (Spring Stampede aside) and running off the best workers in the company to thrive in the WWF (mostly).

Bischoff was a cancer the whole time and deserves so much more credit for killing that company than he gets. He created all the problems that only got worse and worse, from contracts to egos to spending. Hell, were it not for him making Madusa junk the women's title, Montreal probably might not have happened. The bad outweighed the good by such a margin that it

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

the one match worth anything --with Flair-- was nixed so he's probably lucky he got the run he did..

Thing is Flair Vs Shane Douglas DID happen at Slamboree ‘00 and Shane Douglas went over. But it was basically a nothingburger match to set up the Flair Vs Vince Russo and David Flair and the show was such a shit sandwich (seriously why do a serious injury angle at the Kemper Arena near the one year anniversary of Owen’s death there!?) that no one would blame you for forgetting it.

Honestly, the only usage I think you could get from Shane Douglas in ‘99 and on WCW is maybe having him replace Bobby Heenan on color commentary instead of Mark Madden.

 

[Valeyard]

See I forgot that even happened and just remembered Flair nixing it. But that kind of proves points. What a shit company.

Douglas has three non-wrestling spots: managing people who can't talk (like the Thrillers), commentary (where he'd have been better than what we got), or in the TNA role as heel backstage interviewer. You could try him in tags, put the Triple Threat back together or something (I can see potential in Triple Threat vs Triad in a battle for Bam Bam's loyalty, and I think DDP would get a great match out of him). But no reason to bust out viagra or Rick Steiner matches and shit.

 

[strummer]

Douglas became addicted to painkillers in 1999 right before he started in wcw. He also was sporting a major HGH gut iirc. I always liked Shane but he was pretty much done here at 35

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Episode 280: The Downfall Of The NWO - 83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff

On this episode of 83 Weeks, Eric and Conrad explore what lead to the downfall of one of the most influential factions in professional wrestling history...the NWO! Eric shares his thoughts on when he felt the product started to get diluted, how and how the demise could have been avoided, and how...

pca.st

Timely. I think the failure to come up with an ending for its biggest angle ever isn’t brought up enough as one of the reasons why WCW went kaput. That’d never happen in WWE. They might come up with a bad ending and/or lackluster ending but at least they would come up with AN ENDING!

 

[BruiserBrody]

My WCW history is sketchy.... Hogan and Flair did a double turn at Uncensored... but Hogan stayed in the NWO. Steiner and Buff appear to break up at this point. Hogan goes away at the next PPV with a knee injury, but Slamboree still has Vincent, Stevie Ray and Horace aligned... were they with Steiner?
At the GAB the next month Horace works The Cat and there seems to be no NWO.
Superbrawl seems to be the last PPV with the WCW/NWO co presenting gimmick.

Is the nWo gone then until NWO 2000 forms or am I forgetting something? And once nWo 2000 fizzles out in record time due to injuries and what not the last nWo is the Nashville World Order with Jarrett and the Harris Boys?

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

nWo B-Team was around until August/September of ‘99 when Stevie Ray left to reform Harlem Heat, Vincent became Curly Bill and joined the West Texas Rednecks and Brian Adams became the KISS Demon.

I genuinely don’t think the nWo Wolfpac Elite had an ending. Wikipedia entry kind of says that the Hogan/Nash retirement match at Road Wild ‘99 was something of a blowoff for the nWo but I have randomly watched a lot of Summer of Suck Nitros and Thunders on the Cock and I don’t think the nWo was invoked much at all. Maybe alluded to a bit but it already seemed like old news by August ‘99 (despite the B Team still wandering around the undercard!)

Last mention of the nWo Elite I remember is Scott Steiner yelling “I’m nWo 4 Life cause WCW sucks!” at Great American Bash ‘99. It got a huge pop cause well it’s GAB ‘99 and latter had never been more true. At least until the next month.

Also Nash wore that tie dyed nWo tank top during the Summer of Suck but he wasn’t repping the nWo otherwise.

 

[BruiserBrody]

So in theory Sting beating Hogan at Starrcade and the NWO splintering is the ideal finale.
Maybe the NWO failing to stop Goldberg in summer as he routs Hogan and takes the title could be the catalyst for a blow off?
Even Hogan/Flair at Uncensored 99 with a different bunch of nWo BS being overcome by the Horsemen could serve as a blow off.

Or if the Orange Man must be protected... We build to a final battle (Injuries and what not be damned) of Wolfpack/NWO B&W/WCW winner take all DDP/Bret/Goldberg/Flair vs Hogan/Giant/Hall/Steiner vs Nash/Luger/Sting/Savage or some such.... Hogan goes out early via injury.... 20 mins later it appears WCW is about to be screwed out of the win once again as Hollywood Hogan returns to ringside. He enters the ring and.... turns on the NWO...rips off his Black and white shirt to reveal the old Hulkamania colors. Legdrop. WCW wins and everything plays off the original WCW vs NWO match.

 

[snuffbox]

Just rewatched Great American Bash. As badly as it ended, the start of the NWO angle was really good. Bischoff taking the powerbomb spot is one big example of that.

Imo, they almost had the right ending but, in the end, Bischoff's inability to separate professionalism from friendship was probably the biggest downfall. After running roughshod for a couple years, a comeuppance tour should've been the end. Hogan jobs (cleaner) to Sting, shenanigans to get it back, then the Goldberg job. Goldberg over Nash and Hall. Move everyone on to other things in 1999.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

It seemed like they were almost heading for the right idea with Hogan being mostly off of TV for the last few months of ‘98 after Halloween Havoc ‘98 debacle and Bischoff being written off TV the night after Starrcade ‘98. Then the Fingerpoke of Doom happened and the nWo were running roughshod until everyone got bored and Hogan turned back face.

As corny as it sounds, Hogan transforming back into the red & yellow and vanquishing the Outsiders probably was the right way to end it. So maybe that’s why Road Wild ‘99 has been retconned as the end of the nWo by whoever wrote the nWo Wikipedia entry.

 

[Epic for the Summer]

I always thought the Vincent/Stevie Ray Street Fight at Slamboree '99 was the definitive blow off to the nWo.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I didn’t know Virgil had a burner account here.

 

[Gert]

Episode 280: The Downfall Of The NWO - 83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff

On this episode of 83 Weeks, Eric and Conrad explore what lead to the downfall of one of the most influential factions in professional wrestling history...the NWO! Eric shares his thoughts on when he felt the product started to get diluted, how and how the demise could have been avoided, and how...

pca.st

Timely. I think the failure to come up with an ending for its biggest angle ever isn’t brought up enough as one of the reasons why WCW went kaput. That’d never happen in WWE. They might come up with a bad ending and/or lackluster ending but at least they would come up with AN ENDING!

I figured I would at least listen to it before I trash it too much, but I think they have spent too much time early on talking about slight missteps within the first 8-10 months of the nWo, and I actually agree with Bischoff that NWO Nitro take over and even Souled Out weren’t bad ideas.

 

[Gert]

The podcast was more of a Greatest Hits of the time frame and didn’t focus on anything that would have been fun to talk about,

Way too much blame on the Warrior. Like that wasn’t a vanity project for Hogan to get his win back.

Too much glossing over the Finger Poke of Doom. I know they talked about it before, but I also think they downplay it with how Goldberg was probably sold a bill of goods that he would plow though all of NWO Elite to get the title back. Meanwhile there were eight different title changes in the first 7 months of 1999, and none of those were Goldberg.

 

[Valeyard]

Beginning of the end of the nWo was the Giant joining and I don't care. It ceased being an invasion. Bischoff joining was worse for me just because it made the shock of the table bump at the Bash totally pointless, no matter how they spun it, and him immediately offering spots to anyone because they were with them or against them went against the whole concept. Don't get me wrong, he was an awesome heel for the time and it led to guys like Bagwell and Steiner and whoever getting reborn, but it just destroyed the last air of danger. Invaders now a stable, albeit a super heel stable. There was great stuff after, yeah, but I was out when it became clearly less about an invasion.

Savage's turn is the worst turn of the time, though. Totally ruined him, and thank god for DDP for reminding people he still had something left despite total neutering.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

The Giant joining the nWo (and whether or not it was an effective idea) was a discussion on the WCW subreddit the other day.

The mistake wasn’t letting him join but just having him leave after four months. Segment of him joining was an awesome “Oh crap. WCW are screwed!” moment. I genuinely don’t think they knew nWo would be a storyline that would last (and be hot mostly) for years and years and they hastily switched him face.

Giant was a great sub boss before the final boss Hollywood Hogan. And if you keep him in that role long term, maybe Nash sticks in tag teams for a while and we don’t worry about him ruining the main event.

By the time, they realized their mistake and added Giant back to nWo, bloom was off the rose for his WCW run. He was basically a giant version of his occasional tag team partner Lex Luger and no one really cared anymore. Especially The Giant himself.

 

[Epic for the Summer]

Giant joining nWo was fine. Having him join twice was dumb as hell.

I think Hall always getting in trouble prompted the second turn. Like they needed another big man in the heel stable (maybe not since Hall turned on Nash like a week after Giant rejoined).

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

They should've had Steiner force both Hogan and Nash out, call the nWo a bunch of has-been losers, and then rocket him toward the top.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

BOOM. Hogan turns face and has to atone for his sins. BOOM. The handful of lackeys left in the nWo at the time that are worth a damn become Steiner's crew. BOOM. Goldberg has a new target and we build to Steiner/Goldberg at BatB.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I didn’t know Scott Steiner had a burner account here.

Thought I had this morning IRT to the nWo storyline running too damn long.


If it hasn’t surpassed it already, The Bloodline storyline is getting near surpassing the length of the original nWo storyline and very few people think it’s tired. There is a way to prolong these stables for years without feeling tired. However, I wouldn’t trust WCW Creative to put in a lunch order (“Fact of the matter, Kevin, is Thai food doesn’t draw. Nobody cares about it. The reason why we order bison burgers at Ted’s Montana Grill every day is cause it’s good.), let alone develop a 2-4 year storyline.


Even when they did do good long term storytelling, they fell over backwards and pooped their pants on the landing.

 

[Valeyard]

The Giant wasn't a threat for me anymore. Like he was but he wasn't. Hogan had already beat him, and tried to kill him, so why would he join him? What was in it for him? The "if you can't beat em, join em" shit was the worst part of the nWo's expansion and for him it didn't make sense at all. It felt like he was feuding with people he was or had already been feuding with, just in a new shirt. It watered down so much for me, made the whole thing lose immersion. The whole appeal for me was the invasion aspect, not seeing WCW guys fight WCW guys even more.

 

[BruiserBrody]

They should've had Steiner force both Hogan and Nash out, call the nWo a bunch of has-been losers, and then rocket him toward the top.

The "they" in charge was Hogan with creative control and Nash holding the booking pen.

The one guy they managed to elevate (Goldberg) was undermined immediately as Hogan/Nash battled backstage over who was going to pin him first. Hogan appeased himself w/ a few celebrity mega tag matches and then worked w/ Warrior. Nash spent a few months getting to play with his buddy Hall. Once Nash managed to somehow win the backstage battle Hogan announced he was running for President and retired.

 

[Valeyard]

Is Hogan beating Goldberg via some bullshit at Starrcade better or worse? Like I can't decide if, say, Nash turning on Goldberg and Hogan winning --causing the finger poke to never happen-- is a better way to kill Goldberg off.