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News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2024

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

I'm pretty sure a public university can't just hand wave away freedom of speech by writing something in a handbook.
 

Big Papa Paegan

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News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Actually, they can if it's indicative of behavior unbecoming of the university. Whether or not somebody wishes to press the matter is up to them (and the ACLU would defend the speaker if contacted).

EDIT:
None of this would change the OU chapter of SAE being disbanded, however, as the national fraternity has revoked their memberships. And then there's also the whole thing of the two expulsions coming down to the OU SAE leaders creating a hostile learning environment (which is illegal).
 

ViciousFish

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Not a single person involved is sorry. They're sorry they got caught.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

bigolsmitty said:
I'm pretty sure a public university can't just hand wave away freedom of speech by writing something in a handbook.
Let them appeal, then. I feel like the university made the right call.
 

Angle-plex

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Freedom of speech protects from being prosecuted legally. It has nothing to do with University rules and anything like that. The University can boot them if they want.
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Freedom of speech protects from being prosecuted legally. It has nothing to do with University rules and anything like that. The University can boot them if they want.

This isn't true. Racist speech is constitutionally protected, just as is expression of other stupid ideas. And universities can't discipline students based on their speech. That has been the unanimous view of courts that have considered campus speech codes and other campus speech restrictions.

See here:

Student speech outside the classroom and outside academic assignments. Most clearly, students generally may not be expelled, suspended, or otherwise disciplined for what they say in student newspapers, at demonstrations, in out-of-class conversations, and the like. The Supreme Court made this clear in Papish v. Board of Curators, 410 U.S. 667 (1973), and Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169 (1972). Lower courts have followed suit, especially in the late 1980s and 1990s cases that have struck down student speech codes. See, e.g., Dambrot v. Central Michigan Univ., 55 F.3d 1177 (6th Cir. 1995); Iota Xi v. George Mason Univ., 993 F.2d 386 (4th Cir. 1993); UWM Post v. Univ. of Wisc., 74 F. Supp. 1163 (E.D. Wis. 1991); Doe v. Univ. of Mich., 721 F. Supp. 852 (E.D. Mich. 1989).
 

Angle-plex

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

I don't know about expelling the students, but getting rid of their private group should be the university's decision. Ultimately it's all about the money. University doesn't want protests or past students claiming they were discriminated against and looking for a payout.
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

I agree about disbanding the frat.
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

And then there's also the whole thing of the two expulsions coming down to the OU SAE leaders creating a hostile learning environment (which is illegal).

I didn't see this comment before.

This seems pretty shaky. The video was taken clandestinely and released without their permission, outside the classroom. It's hard to see how anyone involved could be charged with actively creating a hostile learning environment.

Freedom of speech protects assholes sometimes.
 

Big Papa Paegan

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

It's not too hard to see how people leading a chant of "you can hang them from a tree" could make minority students feel uneasy.
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Of course, but it was done in private and other students only found out about it because of the clandestine filming & release of the film. And, as an aside, protecting speech that makes people "feel uneasy" is kind of the whole point of the 1st Amendment.
 

Lord of The Curry

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

That's true but things said in private can manifest themself in public just as easily. I think Laz's point is fair.
 

Big Papa Paegan

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News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

The First Amendment also does not protect you from any consequences of practicing it. If you are to go on any sort of tirade in a public setting and don't expect it to be recorded or reported? That's on you.
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Of course not, but again, the history of jurisprudence on public universities and speech says that students can't be disciplined for speech outside of class. There are, of course, "fire in a crowded theater" and "fighting words" type situations that aren't protected by the 1st Amendment, but I don't think this really fits either of those. The "hostile learning environment" claim seems tenuous to me. A student who holds any violent ideas (i.e. a communist) or ideas that make others uncomfortable could be drubbed out of the university on these grounds.

And of course the First Amendment doesn't protect you from consequences of your actions. These assholes should totally be held up to ridicule and shunned from polite society, and the university is within its rights to disband the frat. What shouldn't happen, based on the 1st Amendment and lots of legal history, is policing of speech by a public institution.
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Dumbass Joe Scarborough from the librul MSNBC said these kids did racist shit because of the ganger rap:http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/morning-joe-hosts-blame-racist-sae-video-rap-music-article-1.2145443

One of my former students sent me this:

InZvCXs.jpg
 

Big Papa Paegan

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News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

But couldn't a phrasing such as "hang [a n*****] from a tree" uttered in 2015 in an area not known for racial harmony be construed as "fighting words"? Which would be creating a hostile learning environment?

Also, I actually didn't know "fighting words" weren't protected under the First Amendment. I don't think most people do. That's a can of worms waiting to be opened (since one could argue that any racist or homophobic comments could be quite incendiary).
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Laz said:
But couldn't a phrasing such as "hang [a n*****] from a tree" uttered in 2015 in an area not known for racial harmony be construed as "fighting words"? Which would be creating a hostile learning environment?

Also, I actually didn't know "fighting words" weren't protected under the First Amendment. I don't think most people do. That's a can of worms waiting to be opened (since one could argue that any racist or homophobic comments could be quite incendiary).

Looking at what seems to be the most relevant Supreme Court case here, Brandenburg v. Ohio, I don't think the song constitutes fighting words or incitement.
Clarence Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan (KKK) leader in rural Ohio, contacted a reporter at a Cincinnati television station and invited him to cover a KKK rally...Portions of the rally were filmed, showing several men in robes and hoods, some carrying firearms, first burning a cross and then making speeches. One of the speeches made reference to the possibility of "revengeance" [sic] against "niggers", "Jews", and those who supported them....Brandenburg was charged with advocating violence under Ohio's criminal syndicalism statute for his participation in the rally and for the speech he made. In relevant part, the statute – enacted in 1919 during the First Red Scare – proscribed "advocat[ing]...the duty, necessity, or propriety of crime, sabotage, violence, or unlawful methods of terrorism as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform" and "voluntarily assembl[ing] with any society, group or assemblage of persons formed to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism"...

The U.S. Supreme Court reversed Brandenburg's conviction, holding that government cannot constitutionally punish abstract advocacy of force or law violation.
 

Damaramu

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

After reading the statement from the one kid and the other from his parents I'm not sure they are going to fight it. Then again after the dust settles they could decide to lawyer up.
 

Big Papa Paegan

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

One wonders, then, what does constitute as "fighting words" if the public endorsement of violence predicated upon one's skin color or religious beliefs doesn't.
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Laz said:
One wonders, then, what does constitute as "fighting words" if the public endorsement of violence predicated upon one's skin color or religious beliefs doesn't.

I think I found an answer:

Gooding was the nail in the coffin—if the fighting words exception has any real vitality left at all (and many commentators, including Nadine Strossen, think it is essentially dead) the Supreme Court has effectively limited the exception to only include abusive language, exchanged face to face, which would likely provoke a violent reaction.

http://www.thefire.org/misconceptions-about-the-fighting-words-exception/
 

bigolsmitty

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

The first guy to die in the Civil War was from the SAE fraternity. Shockingly, he was a Confederate:

He drowned on February 12, 1861, while on duty as chaplain of the Alabama troops. He was 23 at the time of his death. As he was about to board a steamer at Fort Morgan, Alabama, he made a misstep and fell into the water. Three days later his body was washed ashore. He was the first man to lose his life in the Civil War. Even though the Civil War did not begin until April 12, 1861, Alabama had seceded from the Union in January, hence the reason for his being the first casualty.

A noble history this frat has.
 

cobainwasmurdered

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/world/asia/chinas-tensions-with-dalai-lama-spill-into-the-afterlife.html

Chinese Communist Party leaders are afraid that the Dalai Lama will not have an afterlife. Worried enough that this week, officials repeatedly warned that he must reincarnate, and on their terms.

Tensions over what will happen when the 14th Dalai Lama, who is 79, dies, and particularly over who decides who will succeed him as the most prominent leader in Tibetan Buddhism, have ignited at the annual gathering of China’s legislators in Beijing.

Officials have amplified their argument that the Communist government is the proper guardian of the Dalai Lama’s succession through an intricate process of reincarnation that has involved lamas, or senior monks, visiting a sacred lake and divining dreams.

Party functionaries were incensed by the exiled Dalai Lama’s recent speculation that he might end his spiritual lineage and not reincarnate. That would confound the Chinese government’s plans to engineer a succession that would produce a putative 15th Dalai Lama who accepts China’s presence and policies in Tibet. Their anger welled up on Wednesday, as it had a day earlier...

If China can control even reincarnation we really are doomed.
 

cobainwasmurdered

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27792044/gop-aghast-at-klingenschmitts-actofgod-comment-in-babys-death

Several leading Colorado Republicans lashed out Thursday against state Rep. Gordon Klingenschmitt, saying his "curse of God" comments about an attack on a pregnant woman whose baby was cut from her womb were "disgusting" and "reprehensible."

The lawmaker, who also is a minister, quoted the Bible in his "Pray In Jesus Name" program Wednesday and tried to link the crime to abortion.

"This is the curse of God upon America for our sin of not protecting innocent children in the womb and part of that curse for our rebellion against God as a nation is that our pregnant women are ripped open," Klingenschmitt said.

Mind blowing.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/lobbyist-claims-monsanto-weed-killer-is-safe-to-drink-then-bolts-when-tv-host-offers-him-a-glass/ on the lighter side. But don't play with a lighter near it.
 

ViciousFish

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

Klingenschmitt also tried to donate to her GoFundMe and she refunded it
 

DrVenkman PhD

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Re: News That Doesn't Warrant a Thread 2015

http://www.windsorstar.com/news/world/shoots+armadillo+bullet+bounces+goes+through+mobile+home/10970808/story.html

LEESBURG, Georgia — Authorities say a man shot an armadillo, but ended up accidentally wounding his mother-in-law when the bullet ricocheted off the mammal known for its hard shell.
 
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