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Old School Observations and Questions, 2024

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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The nWo going 0-2 at their first PPV in WWF was really a death blow but I don’t see any scenario where Austin puts them over and there is really no good alternate person on the roster that would give them the rub.
 

Valeyard

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He'd put them over but not lose to them. Overbooking and Attitude nonsense to lead into the brand split. Best case. There's no good way out of the whole thing but in that case seeing the guy who terrorized the WWF be a match for the guys who terrorized WCW during its peak isn't bad. But there's no good way out.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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Bringing the nWo back was such a horrible idea that they had to transparently say it was a horrible idea in storyline. I fail to see any positive of bringing the three of those guys back in that way at that time.

That being said, I think one argument in favor is that WrestleMania X-8 would be even lamer without them around.
 

Valeyard

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Would it? Without the nWo you have Austin and Rock freed up and literally anything they would do would be great.

Any WCW act that came in after InVasion was a waste of time because it no matter who it is, it was too late to make the most money. I don't know how I feel about the nWo's potential as Vince's guys. Like it makes total sense and is a fun callback however I feel like they're too over to be glorified henchmen in a feud with Flair. I remember feeling kinda weird then because yeah the nWo is cool and being in the WWF is cool but HULK HOGAN was coming back to the company whose owner he testified against in a federal trial. That was WAY bigger to me.
 

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
If it’s Austin Vs Nash, it is probably a mess cause of the political gamesmanship. It sends a bad message to the boys if Austin puts over WCW’s master politician.
Yeah, Nash still whines to this day that they let the Rock verbally shit on him, so I can see an already styles clashy match going to shit if Nash is asked to eat the stunner in his first major match match.

I'm not sure Hogan coming in as a face works nearly as well as the fans organically forcing them to make a switch due to his reactions.

"WhatchagunnaDo Rock of Jabroni?" was pretty lame a year later.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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I honestly think their initial instinct of just bringing in Hogan in '02 was the right one. If he needs some backup to feel comfortable, bring in the Nasty Boys to fill out the tag team division. Yeah, it'd suck but it's not as much of a disruption and wasted potential as The Outsiders in WWE.

I never got if Hogan and Hall & Nash had any sort of friendship or even a respectful organic working relation. It definitely seemed like a partnership of convenience that worked well initially but then after a while, they forgot why they got together in the first place.
 

Valeyard

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The Nasties are never the answer. Ever. Besides they fucked up their chances by being assholes during dark matches around then, too.

Nash is right about Rock, though. Rock buried them out of the gate and made them second class, like he did with everyone. That's a major problem no one talks about with him. However Nash would've played ball with Austin because I don't think WWEized Nash gave enough of a shit to be a problem and again he and Austin were cooler than Austin and Hall.

The nWo stopped making sense so early, just in general.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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The Nasties are never the answer. Ever. Besides they fucked up their chances by being assholes during dark matches around then, too.
Depressing thing? That Nasties dark match where they were spotlight hogging assholes was in 2007. One of their opponents was a young Drew McIntyre.


I think The Nasties had money invested in the XWF so I am not sure they wanted to go to WWF in ‘02 even if Hulk wanted them. That was probably why they were so angry and screaming and swapping halitosis breath with @BruiserBrody ’s friends.
 

BUTT

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I agree with Brody that the dynamics of the Rock/Hogan match are much better with Hogan as the heel that the crowd wills into turning face. It's just not as interesting as a face-face matchup. And if Hogan comes back in the red and yellow, coming out to "Real American" and flanked by the Nasty Boys (??), Rock's shit-talking act would have either turned Rock heel or made Hogan look lame for not being able to keep up on the mic. Maybe both. Hogan's title run didn't exactly move numbers either.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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I didn’t mean Nasty Boys flanking Hogan. Just tell Hogan he can let a few of his cronies on the roster.

I feel like The Rock could cut maybe his GOAT promo on Brian Knobbs.

As for fantasy booking an alternate version for the build to Hogan/Rock, I mean that match already ended up being iconic despite a terrible build so it’s hard to approach.
 

JN News

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I have a question or two about the original Great American Bash summer tours that Jim Crockett and company managed bring to the table of the wrestling world. How successful were they with all the Bash tours? How much money and grossing and gate numbers did they manage to bring in? Did they sell out all of the venues during that time before the Crockett's had to sell their company to Turner?
 

BUTT

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Here's what I found on '86, from Meltzer's 1986 yearbook:

8. AMERICAN BASH ON TOUR
Nobody can fault Dusty Rhodes for lacking confidence. The 41-year-old Rhodes, possessor of little in the way of wrestling skill, was probably the No. 1 drawing card in the business for the latter half of the 1970s.
And as a booker for Jim Crockett Promotions, by and large, he's had amazing success. Sure he has his detractors and there are valid objections to some of the things he’s done, but he’s transformed Crockett into a solid, and first-rate No. 2 promotion while all the competitors were self-destructing.
Rhodes' biggest success, so he thought, was going to be the month-long American Bash tour, from July 1 through August 2 hitting several major markets with big outdoor shows. To team with the Crockett wrestlers, who were in the midst of a successful year, Rhodes booked some solid Country Music acts, like Waylon Jennings, George Jones, Jessi Coulter, Joe Ely, Delbert McClinton and David Allan Coe, for a music-wrestling doubleheader which was sure to be a big money-maker. 14 shows were planned, with ticket prices raised unreasonably high, $50 ringside and $20 in the bleachers. _ Rhodes was predicting the 14 shows, in total, would gross $8 million. His wrestlers were thinking about earning $80-90,000 for the month, and with stars in their eyes, starting thinking about buying new homes, new cars, etc.
In this case Rhodes was guilty of overconfidence. The American Bash tour wasn't a complete flop, but some of the shows certainly were.
The tour opened July 1 in Philadelphia as 10,900 fans paid $230,000 at Veterans Stadium. Everyone decided to claim the crowd was 20,000 or 30,000 and call it a success. July 3 at RFK Stadium in Washington, D.C. was tougher, as 6,500 paid $135,000. July 4 in Memphis was a disaster, 800 paid—$18,000. Finally on July 5 in Charlotte they breathed a sigh of relief with a near $300,000 gate. There were some good nights, such as July 26 when 15,500 sold out the Greensboro Coliseum to see Dusty Rhodes beat Ric Flair and win the NWA title with a $260,000 gate, but they were outweighed by more disappointment—Ric Flair vs. Road Warrior Animal drawing 3,900 in Cincinnati, the Flair-Rhodes rematch on August 2 in Atlanta drawing 7,600 (with kids prices cut to $5 to save face) and on it went. In all, the tour grossed around $1.6 million—or 20 percent of the original prediction, and in cities like Philadelphia, country music didn’t exactly, go over, in Charlotte and Greensboro, however, it was the perfect promotion.
They are closer to reality this year. The current plan is for the Bash to expand to 22 to 25 cities, however all the shows, with the exception of Charlotte, will be indoors. Hopefully ticket prices will be made more reasonable as well.
 

JN News

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Shifting to a question on another topic. Back in 1999, Sable quit the WWF after she claimed that the men in the locker room were sexually harassing her backstage. She sued the WWF, shortly afterward. She also jumped on the bandwagon on the Hart Family after Owen Hart was killed at the Over the Edge PPV in that same year.

My question is, did Sable express any opinions about the death of Owen Hart in any interviews?
 

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
Shifting to a question on another topic. Back in 1999, Sable quit the WWF after she claimed that the men in the locker room were sexually harassing her backstage. She sued the WWF, shortly afterward. She also jumped on the bandwagon on the Hart Family after Owen Hart was killed at the Over the Edge PPV in that same year.

My question is, did Sable express any opinions about the death of Owen Hart in any interviews?
It was becoming, in my opinion, a sport run amok. It was time for someone to say "no". Two weeks before Owen Hart's death, I objected in writing to the obscenity and the safety and entered into a contract with the WWF under which they would assure that I would not be subject to further degradation. That same night I was introduced as being "horizontally accessible" and the mike was simulated to include oral copulation. That may be funny to some, but not to me with an 11 year old daughter and this was, notwithstanding an express promise an hour before that, in writing.
 

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
Cagematch and Wrestlingdata seem to have different results for this. Cagematch is missing stuff assuming Wrestlingdata is correct.
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This seems to have been done to celebrate Boesch's 50th year in wrestling.
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Perhaps most notable as being Verne's first matches back since he "retired" in May.
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Tournament layout seems very messy. Seems to be some kind of round robin type of thing. Some guys lose several times. Tito works FIVE matches in one night.

10/30/81 Houston, TX(1st Night of Gold Cup Tournament)
Wahoo McDaniel draw Nick Bockwinkel(20:00)
Dos Caras beat Bull Ramos
Dick Slater beat Evan Johnson
Manny Fernandez beat Terry Allen
Gino Hernandez double countout with The Sheik
Tully Blanchard draw Mike Graham
Gene Kiniski beat Tank Patton
Moon Mulligan beat Kelly Kiniski
Tom Pritchard beat Don Serrano
Tiger Conway, Jr. beat Ray Hernandez
Scott Casey beat The Spoiler

10/31/81 Houston, TX(2nd Night of Gold Cup Tournament)
Nick Bockwinkel beat Wahoo McDaniel
Ernie Ladd beat The Sheik by DQ
Gino Hernandez beat Hiro Matsuda
Verne Gagne beat Dick Slater
Dos Caras beat Tully Blanchard by DQ
Ken Patera beat Evan Johnson
Mike Graham beat Don Serrano
Tom Pritchard beat Nick Kozak
Gene Kiniski beat Moon Mulligan
Manny Fernandez beat Bull Ramos
Tiger Conway, Jr. beat Kelly Kiniski
Scott Casey draw Tank Patton

Night 3:
12 Man Battle Royal
Tito Santana defeated Dos Caras and Gene Kiniski and Gino Hernández and Ken Patera and Manny Fernández and Mike Graham and Nick Bockwinkel and Tiger Conway Jr. and Tom Prichard and Tully Blanchard and Verne Gagne

Gold Cup Tournament, Round #3
Gino Hernández defeated Dos Caras by countout (6:40 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Round #3
Tiger Conway Jr. defeated Manny Fernández (20 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Round #3
Tully Blanchard defeated Mike Graham (17:50 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Round #3
Verne Gagne defeated Gene Kiniski (0:34 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Round #3
Ken Patera defeated Tom Prichard (6:58 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Round #3
Tito Santana defeated Nick Bockwinkel (20 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Round #4
Gino Hernández defeated Tiger Conway Jr. (9:04 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Round #4
Tully Blanchard defeated Verne Gagne by disqualification (9:14 minutes) Match bewerten
1 Gold Cup Tournament, Round #4
Tito Santana defeated Ken Patera by disqualification (10:20 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Semi-Final
Tito Santana defeated Tully Blanchard (11:37 minutes) Match bewerten
Gold Cup Tournament, Final
Tito Santana defeated Gino Hernández (3:59 minutes)
 

Epic for the Summer

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My joke in the AEW thread about them running the Fenway Music Hall, which is right across from Fenway Park, got me thinking: What are some famous shows that took place at Baseball stadiums? There was of course the Battle at Shea and WrestleMania 19 taking place at SAFECO field. What others?
 

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
My joke in the AEW thread about them running the Fenway Music Hall, which is right across from Fenway Park, got me thinking: What are some famous shows that took place at Baseball stadiums? There was of course the Battle at Shea and WrestleMania 19 taking place at SAFECO field. What others?
If you dip into the AWA thread I just mentioned 6 of them.




WCCW several times a year. JCP Bash shows and so on and on and on
 

Hawk 34

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My joke in the AEW thread about them running the Fenway Music Hall, which is right across from Fenway Park, got me thinking: What are some famous shows that took place at Baseball stadiums? There was of course the Battle at Shea and WrestleMania 19 taking place at SAFECO field. What others?
The Big Event was at Exhibition Stadium in Toronto in 86.

WrestleFest 88 was at Milwaukee County Stadium.

Minute Maid Park, Tropicana Field and Chase Field have all recently hosted Royal Rumbles.

Hundreds of dozens of territory, indies and Japanese shows have taken place at baseball stadiums of varying sizes.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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WWWF did a show at Fenway in the summer of 1969 with Bruno Sammartino Vs Killer Kowalski in a stretcher match as main event.

1*iE7Rjq6IwBSRAd9-54yzMQ.png

@alkeiper will appreciate this write up of the show from a presumably young Peter Gammons.

A small indie also ran shows there for a few summers in the late 2010s as part of a family festival there but the ring was set up in the concourse for wandering passerby not in the middle of the field. A pre fame Carmelo Hayes and Ivar were part of those shows.
 

Tino Standard

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Stretching a bit, Crockett ran small cards after a couple Cleveland Indians games at the old Municipal Stadium back in the 80s. I wouldn’t call those famous events or even full shows, though. They were postgame attractions for people who came for baseball, no different than fireworks after a night game.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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GD. @BruiserBrody and @Valeyard summoned Brod’s favorite cranky boomer pro wrestling historian discussing the PNW territory.
 

Valeyard

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Is it any good? Like what want from a crusty wrestling historian is a cross between Gene Okerlund, Shelby Foote, and Paul Harvey.
 

Hawk 34

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Say what you will about Vince but this motherfucker was a fashion icon.
 
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