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WWF New Generation Thread III

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
We missed out on a lot of potentially great stuff cause most guys over the age of 40 were considered washed unless they were top guys.

We should have gotten Tito Santana as the strait laced senior member of the lWo, at least. Although I guess that one could STILL happen…

"No, no, because going to WCW, I'd have to be away from home and on the road again," said Santana, who to this day continues to compete at independent events. "Once I left the WWF, I had no desire to be on the road."
 

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
We missed out on a lot of potentially great stuff cause most guys over the age of 40 were considered washed unless they were top guys.

We should have gotten Tito Santana as the strait laced senior member of the lWo, at least. Although I guess that one could STILL happen…
I'd buy this argument more if the LWO was a WWF gimmick in 1998, not WCW.
Tito would have been 46ish and, would have been 10 years removed as being in any role other than a JTTS.
Russo wasn't booking so the WWWF/WWF fan booking wasn't there.
Santana was a good/great worker in his prime and probably could have still sold his ass off/psychology, but the Luchas raised the bar for high spots so the days of the Titos and Brunzells being considered "hi flyers" for using dropkicks were past. I don't really want Tito trying to wreck his knees and back doing dives just to show he's like one of the kids.
If you want an old Lucha/Mexican to be the cranky old man of the LWO, Chavo Sr makes more sense on every level given his son and brothers were all under WCW employ. You can even get washed Piper to do something vs the LWO based on he and Chavo's 70s rivalry.

I also think the WWF schedule in the 80s chewed guys up at a much higher rate than any company in the last 20 years can compare to. Hard rings, non stop travel. There is a good reason guys from that era largely bowed out before the 97 boom could reinvigorate them in their late 40s.

Thankfully Tito had a real career to fall back upon so he could just do a few indies for fun and show up 2 or 3 times a month for WWF to do Spanish commentary (whenever that timeframe was).
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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What a random assortment of special guest stars that WWF lent out for SMW's attempt at invading WCW territory.

It's like Vince said to Cornette "Sure, pal. I let you use some of the guys. Just pick five names out of a hat."

Lex Luger and Owen Hart are actually pretty good gets, a week and a half out before WrestleMania X. And Luger has the connection of being a WCW guy. But you stick him in a random match with IRS? I guess that was probably a WWF call cause I'm sure Cornette would've gladly let one of his heels get clobbered with the forearm. WWF understandably didn't want Luger to get hurt a week and a half before WrestleMania X so they stick him with the safest heel on the roster.

Teaming Owen with comedy JTTS seems even more random. It really telegraphs that Well or Dunn is going to eat the pin.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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I’m surprised we didn’t get more weird ECW Vs WCW stuff on the indies in the ‘00s. Besides Buff Bagwell getting booed out of the ECW Arena that one time.
 

Valeyard

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I can't believe Luger and Owen never had more big singles matches. It seems like an easy move, especially before and after Wrestlemania.
 

HarleyQuinn

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I can't believe Luger and Owen never had more big singles matches. It seems like an easy move, especially before and after Wrestlemania.
They were still in an era of squash matches and Owen was getting a lot of TV time doing that while obviously working Bret at house shows post-WM. Owen was working Bret from basically March 1994 - September 1994, mostly singles then tag matches starting late August. By October, Owen finally started working Razor and Bulldog at house shows.

I get the idea of Owen being the top heel but... he wasn't beating Bret any time soon and he literally pinned Bret at a WrestleMania. How much more of a rub as a heel could he have gotten by beating some of the other top faces at the time? If anything, him just wrestling jobbers kind of added to his jerk little brother aspect because he wasn't wrestling legit challengers.
 

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Backlund's run in 94 starts when Vince's trial is going on and ends when the trial ends. Bob probably doesn't get that run if Vince isn't distracted. According to the Observer there was heat on Pat Patterson as the Backlund push was his idea and it was considered a failure internally.

So I do wonder if Owen gets Backlund's spot if Vince was around.
 

Valeyard

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Dude whoever told Gonzalez to sell anything ever gave him crippling advice. He should never, ever have sold anything and absolutely never left his feet.
 

Valeyard

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I'm so glad Savio's getting a reevaluation. I'll go to my grave saying the Owen match at Summerslam is a lost classic.
 

alkeiper

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Dude whoever told Gonzalez to sell anything ever gave him crippling advice. He should never, ever have sold anything and absolutely never left his feet.
Selling without selling is a nuanced art. The workers who are best at it don't sell but they still register. Gonzalez is the worst I've ever seen at it who wrestled on national television.
 

Valeyard

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He got the worst advice and it shortened his potential. There's no logical way he should be so much worse than someone like Khali who was less mobile and arguably didn't have the same presence. Better being a shitty 1988 Andre clone than the first Gonzalez. I think he might have had at least another couple years in him if he'd been pulled aside and told to just not do everything he was doing. I'mma blame Tim White.
 

HarleyQuinn

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I'm not sure I've ever seen a TNT match. You can see why Vince may have saw "Ninja" when scouting TNT, but the mask eliminates whatever star power signing TNT might bring in for WWC fans.
You're assuming Vince gave a shit about drawing in fans from some other territory. To me, this is the epitome of retro-Smark thinking trying to apply today's thinking to past eras in terms of an "audience" following performers to other promotions. WWF/E has always and will always be about the brand above all else. That's why their slogan is WWE: Then, Now, Forever. Not Hulk Hogan. Not Steve Austin. Not The Rock. Not John Cena.

They don't really and never really cared about bringing in audiences from ROH or TNA or WWC or ECW or WCW.

I think Savio could've had a better run if he'd come in just 4-5 years later than he did. Post-Russo's departure I could've seen Savio teaming with Eddie Guerrero or feuding in that European Title/IC Title level while catering to a different demographic of fans.
 

Valeyard

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Savio legit should've been a DX hanger-on. Be the D-Lo of the group.
 

Valeyard

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Those promos pissed me off so much as a kid. Dude's the champion, show up on the show if you aren't going to defend it at least. For all the bullshit that the title scene has dealt with over the last 20ish years at least the champion didn't cease to exist.

WCW Hogan in the WWF is always gonna be weird.
 

Cackling Co Pilot Kamala

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That stretch from WrestleMania IX to the first King of the Ring PPV really is a preview of ‘94 WCW. Hulk Hogan cutting annoying promos from the set with Jimmy Hart! Mean Gene wearing glasses! Jim Duggan refusing to put over talented young stars cleanly!
 

Fall of Epic

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Are we already forgetting Lesnar's title reigns over the last decade where he rarely showed up and they kind of never acknowledged him when he wasn't around.

I'm fine with a World champion rarely defending but yeah, at least show up live and cut promos and do a face to face.
 

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
You're assuming Vince gave a shit about drawing in fans from some other territory. To me, this is the epitome of retro-Smark thinking trying to apply today's thinking to past eras in terms of an "audience" following performers to other promotions. WWF/E has always and will always be about the brand above all else. That's why their slogan is WWE: Then, Now, Forever. Not Hulk Hogan. Not Steve Austin. Not The Rock. Not John Cena.

They don't really and never really cared about bringing in audiences from ROH or TNA or WWC or ECW or WCW.

I think Savio could've had a better run if he'd come in just 4-5 years later than he did. Post-Russo's departure I could've seen Savio teaming with Eddie Guerrero or feuding in that European Title/IC Title level while catering to a different demographic of fans.
Counter argument: The moment the hood came off and he played a Puerto Rican legend, he became one of the upper mid carders instead of a heatless goof jobbing to 1995 Doink.
 

Valeyard

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Are we already forgetting Lesnar's title reigns over the last decade where he rarely showed up and they kind of never acknowledged him when he wasn't around.

I'm fine with a World champion rarely defending but yeah, at least show up live and cut promos and do a face to face.
Brock actually defended the title in usually entertaining matches, plus the advantage of Brock is that he's a final boss looming over everything instead of whatever Hogan was. Give me Heyman showing up and doing great promos to build to something over the title just being dead and held hostage by Hogan while he films Thunder In Paradise and only appears via tape to sound like an idiot. Brock's schedule sucked but at least he HAD a schedule.

I wish they'd been able to get Taz in as Kwang just because I can't think of someone Vince would lose interest in more than an orange ninja who was like 4'0.
 

HarleyQuinn

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Counter argument: The moment the hood came off and he played a Puerto Rican legend, he became one of the upper mid carders instead of a heatless goof jobbing to 1995 Doink.
Yeah. I misread your quote (sorry!) and thought you meant Vince was trying to capitalize on TNT's star power by drawing WWC fans to WWF.

Savio had the rub teaming with Razor and they tried pushing him by having him lead Los Boricous but even as a kid I always felt he came off as more a tag-along to the stars than being his own real wrestler. Not helped that Hall had such an overshadowing presence/charisma that his teaming with anybody was going to be hard.
 

Valeyard

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Savio also just looked bad next to Razor, like his dumpy friend instead of an ally, and they never clicked. Waltman felt like a little brother, Savio just felt like a dude with nothing in common
 

BruiserBrody

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[quote author=BRODY link=topic=7317.msg606823#msg6
Savio also just looked bad next to Razor, like his dumpy friend instead of an ally, and they never clicked. Waltman felt like a little brother, Savio just felt like a dude with nothing in common
I think that was the broad wrestling alliance rule as Razor was "Cuban" so he'd be buddies with a Puerto Rican.
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I vividly recall my cousin and I lovingly mocking Savio Vega's debut promo on the school bus back in 95. He spoke in a rapid Spanglish, punctuated by screaming his own name at various points. IIRC.
 

Valeyard

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It's not a race thing, just visual. Razor was the coolest guy in the business, Savio was built more like Carl Winslow.
 
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