Old School Observations and Questions, 2024

[Big Papa Paegan]

...not wrong, really

 

[Fall of Epic]

TIL Randy Savage did an interview for WWE Magazine in 2003. I've been trying to find a scan but Google isn't helping. I assumed Savage had been persona non grata for the company until his death.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Yeah and he promoted some WWE video game a year before his death.

 

[Fall of Epic]

The video game deal was done independently of WWE so I don't count that. I think it's clear though had he not passed, both sides would have patched things up eventually.

 

[BUTT]

The story was that Brian Solomon called him up to do an interview for the magazine, since he was in press mode promoting his rap album, and had no idea about the heat between Savage and the company. He also said that Shane once saw a Savage poster on the wall of his office and ripped it off and stomped on it.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I bet he would have gotten one of the spots that Bruno or Warrior had gotten. Tbh, I think he was the biggest of the three “not in this lifetime “ whales of ‘00s/early ‘10s WWE reconciliation.

If Savage doesn’t die unexpectedly, I’m not 100% sure if the Bruno or Warrior reconciliations happen. Mortality will shake up a person’s belief system.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

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Lex saw his old tag team partner get his flowers and now he thinks he has one more in him!

 

[Valeyard]

Luger looks so much like my grandmother sometimes it's awkward.

 

[BruiserBrody]

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Lex saw his old tag team partner get his flowers and now he thinks he has one more in him!

It's been a work for 17 years and Luger is going to rise out of the chair at Wrestlemania like he's a Grandma at an Andy Kaufman stage show

 

[BruiserBrody]

Luger looks so much like my grandmother sometimes it's awkward.

My brother has been Mike Holmgren's stunt double since 1992. Even bloated out now in older age just like Coach Mike.

I wore shorts for Xmas expecting a house full of fat midwesterners to keep the house at a blistering temp mark.

RIP my hairline and heart valves.

 

[BruiserBrody]

I wasn't expecting Boogie Man to be one of Dory Jr's most frequent partners of all time. (Wrestlingdata) They had a run vs Paul Jones post Starrcade 83. If Dory didn't have his hands full trying to carry his partner and his opponents (Fat Jody and young Herc), other guys who joined them in six man matches are The Baron (wait he had a JCP run in 84? I guess I forgot that from when I was deep diving), Rufus R Jones, Junkfood Dog and Angelo Mosca! Cripes!!!

 

[alkeiper]

I’ve found with that site that JCP is so well documented that it skews the results.

 

[BruiserBrody]

I’ve found with that site that JCP is so well documented that it skews the results.

Same time frame of results showed me that Tully came in as a face and turned heel at a house show right away when he came in. (ala Dibiase, WWF) Apparently this was a popular trope of Dory's booking.

I don't recall catching that when I did my deep dive in 2019

 

[BruiserBrody]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1769524083576713470

I kind of wish Loss would have elaborated more on this.
Ole booked a jobber named "Vince McMann", and sued for GCW but after that..... a few weeks of really bad TV in a bad time slot.
I guess he's talking about the failed expansion with Joe Blanchard?
Vince took a bunch of Ole's talent in 83 and 84 and Ole....let the Road Warriors go after Black Sat.... could have brought Savage back in (Ole had booked Savage recently and IIRC gave him the "Savage" name if the Apter's are truthful... and so on.

Verne booked shows in Vince's back yard, signed several of Vince's rejects (Tonga, Sarge, Samoans, etc) and expanded the merch end of his business.

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – January 1, 1984
Johnny Rich vs. Pat Rose
Tommy Rogers vs. Brad Armstrong
Ron Garvin vs. Pez Whatley
National TV Champion Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) vs. Jerry Lawler
Jerry Brisco, National Tag Team Champion Brett Sawyer, & Bugsy McGraw vs. Karl Krupp & the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering)
National Heavyweight Champion Ted Dibiase vs. Bob Armstrong
Jos LeDuc vs. National Tag Team Champion Buzz Sawyer

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – January 15, 1984 (4,500)
Tommy Rogers defeated NWA Jr. Heavyweight Champion Les Thornton to win the title; the title change was reversed the next day since Thornton’s foot was on the rope during the cover
Ron Garvin fought Pez Whatley to a draw
National TV Champion Jake Roberts fought Jerry Lawler to a double count-out
Jerry Brisco, National Tag Team Champion Brett Sawyer, & Bugsy McGraw defeated the Road Warriors & Karl Krupp when Krupp was pinned; after the bout, Stan Hansen attacked the Road Warriors with a 2×4
Johnny Rich pinned National Heavyweight Champion Ted Dibiase when Mr. R interfered
National Tag Team Champion Buzz Sawyer fought Jos LeDuc to a double disqualification at the 4-minute mark

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – February 5, 1984
Ron Garvin defeated King Kong Bundy via forfeit; stipulations stated the winner would receive a National TV title shot on Feb. 11
Mr. R defeated the Spoiler
NWA TV Champion Jake Roberts defeated Jerry Brisco
Pez Whatley & Sweet Brown Sugar defeated National Tag Team Champion the Road Warriors via disqualification
National Heavyweight Champion Ted Dibiase defeated Jack Brisco

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – February 26, 1984
Jesse Barr fought Pez Whatley to a draw
The Spoiler (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Johnny Rich
Mr. R defeated Ted Dibiase via disqualification
NWA Jr. Heavyweight Champion Les Thornton defeated Tommy Rogers
Nikolai Volkoff fought Wahoo McDaniel to a no contest
Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Ron Garvin
Stan Hansen & King Kong Bundy fought National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) to a no contest
NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated National Heavyweight Champion Brad Armstrong

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – March 11, 1984
Rocky Jones defeated Jesse Barr
Jack & Jerry Brisco defeated Tommy Rogers & Sweet Brown Sugar
Tim Horner defeated Larry Zbyszko
Ron Garvin & National Heavyweight Champion Brad Armstrong defeated Jake Roberts & the Spoiler (w/ Paul Ellering)
King Kong Bundy defeated Nikolai Volkoff
National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Wahoo McDaniel & Jay Youngblood

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – April 1, 1984
Tommy Rogers defeated Dale Veasey
Sweet Brown Sugar defeated Bob Roop
Tim Horner defeated Les Thornton
Jos LeDuc vs. King Kong Bundy
National Heavyweight Champion Brad Armstrong defeated the Spoiler (w/ Paul Ellering)
National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) fought Jerry Lawler & Austin Idol to a no contest
Ron Garvin defeated Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) in a Canadian strap match

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – April 22, 1984
Tommy Rogers defeated Bob Roop
Tim Horner & Sweet Brown Sugar defeated Les Thornton & Rocky Jones
Jake Roberts defeated Brad Armstrong
National TV Champion Ron Garvin defeated Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering)
King Kong Bundy & the Masked Superstar defeated National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering)
King Kong Bundy defeated Paul Ellering in a lights out match

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – May 6, 1984
Les Thornton fought Tim Horner to a draw
King Konga defeated Bob Roop
Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Tommy Rogers
National Heavyweight Champion Brad Armstrong & Ron Garvin fought Ted Dibiase & the Spoiler (w/ Paul Ellering) to a no contest
Ole Anderson defeated Arn Anderson
King Kong Bundy & the Masked Superstar defeated National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) to win the titles

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – May 20, 1984
National Tag Team Championship Tournament Quarter Finals: Ted Dibiase & the Spoiler (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Jerry Lawler & Austin Idol
National Tag Team Championship Tournament Quarter Finals: The Junkyard Dog & Sweet Brown Sugar defeated Mid-Atlantic TV Champion Tully Blanchard & Tommy Rogers
National Tag Team Championship Tournament Quarter Finals: Jake Roberts & the Great Kabuki (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Brad Armstrong & Ron Garvin
National Tag Team Championship Tournament Quarter Finals: The Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Ole Anderson & Stan Hansen via disqualification
NWA Jr. Heavyweight Champion Les Thornton fought Tim Horner to a double count-out
National Tag Team Championship Tournament Semi Finals: The Junkyard Dog & Sweet Brown Sugar defeated Ted Dibiase & the Spoiler (w/ Paul Ellering)
National Tag Team Championship Tournament Semi Finals: King Kong Bundy & King Konga defeated Jake Roberts & the Great Kabuki (w/ Paul Ellering) via disqualification
National Tag Team Championship Tournament Finals: The Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated the Junkyard Dog & Sweet Brown Sugar to win the titles

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – June 3, 1984
Adrian Street vs. Tommy Rogers
NWA TV Champion Tully Blanchard vs. Sweet Brown Sugar
National TV Champion Ron Garvin vs. Dick Slater
Jake Roberts vs. King Kong Bundy
The Spoiler vs. King Konga
National Heavyweight Champion Brad Armstrong vs. Ted Dibiase
National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors vs. Jimmy Valiant & Tim Horner
NWA World Champion Ric Flair vs. Stan Hansen

GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – June 17, 1984
Kamala defeated King Konga
Tim Horner defeated Tommy Rogers
The Junkyard Dog defeated Nikolai Volkoff
Ole Anderson defeated Assassin #1
The Masked Superstar defeated the Spoiler
National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors fought the Zambuie Express to a no contest
Jake Roberts defeated National TV Champion Ron Garvin to win the title


GCW @ Atlanta, GA – Omni – July 1, 1984
Krusher Kruschev defeated Tommy Rogers
Jerry Blackwell defeated Dale Veasey
Nikolai Volkoff fought the Masked Superstar to a double count-out
Ole & Gene Anderson defeated Assassin #1 & #2
The Spoiler (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated National Heavyweight Champion Brad Armstrong to win the title
Dusty Rhodes & Jimmy Valiant defeated National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering)
Ron Garvin defeated National TV Champion Jake Roberts (w/ Paul Ellering) to win the title

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

John McAdam always says that 1983 was a howlingly bad year for GCW. Those ‘84 shows look better but hard to see how they would be the first line of defense. In his book, Bret says that Stu told him after an early ‘80s NWA convention that Crockett and Verne Gagne were the ones that would fight Vince the hardest and longest (but Vince’s resources and New York television meant he’d win).


I wonder why Los Angeles was one of the first territories to die (even before VKM took over). You think the 2nd biggest media market and a good to great wrestling town wouldn’t be so lame duck.

 

[BruiserBrody]

LOOKING BACK ON MIKE LEBELL | WrestlingFigs

wrestlingfigs.com

Mike expanded upon the famous Southern California Hollywood Wrestling Office he inherited not long after his legendary stepfather Cal Eaton's passing

Just another nepo baby! Sorry Snuffy

As for why he failed:

Under Mike's reign, but actually primarily inherited from his stepfather, legendary Cal Eaton, Mike promoted KCOP tv studios every Saturday from 6-7:30 pm for later broadcast at the old Fairfax location near Hollywood Blvd. The show was hosted by Dick Lane until a contract dispute with Mike over salary which saw Lane walk in October of 1973 to be replaced by longtime "locker room" interviewer, Gene Lebell. 8 months later, KCOP axed the deal after Mike allegedly, continually violated their new edict telling him to tone down the plugs for all the spot shows. When Greg Valentine pushed his loser leaves town match at the Olympic with John Tolos "one too many times" as Mike put it on my radio show on March 26, 2000; KCOP kicked him out. Mike was forced to rely only on his all-Spanish weekly tv show Wednesdays from the Olympic. Hosted by Miguel Alonzo and boxing expert Luis Magana, the interviews were done by either Miguel, Luis, Gene Lebell, Jeff Walton or "at times even the world's greatest ring announcer, Jimmy Lennon if we were shorthanded!"

Outlaw Verne:

Mike of course went to war in '68 and early '69 with Verne Gagne who partnered with Fabulous Forum multi-millionaire famous owner Jack Kent Cooke(who owned the L.A. Lakers NBA team, the NHL Kings hockey team, the Washington Redskins NFL team, etc).

"Jack had personally been snubbed reportedly by Mike when he wanted to borrow some of my wrestlers for something he was doing outside of L.A. Or he took it as a snub, and then when we didn't want to join him on boxing ventures, he became angry with us, or me personally. I've heard he sought out Verne Gagne and the AWA, and promoted just a few shows at the nearby Forum, right off the San Diego and Harbor Freeways. Mind you, we were just off the Santa Monica and Harbor Freeways at the Olympic. Another thing I'm going to break here is that despite even the boys thinking we "owned" the Olympic Auditorium, it was no such thing. We had a sweet deal with the city for multiple years, and just rented the Olympic as primary tenants for our wrestling and boxing shows, tv tapings and we'd get income back from renting out to Bill Griffiths and his roller games," Mike told me on one of his two appearances on my old CRN radio show.

"So Verne loaded up his cards with AWA stars, but we contacted Sam who although he was later friendly with Verne, at this time decided to throw his weight to help us out. We were sent stars from all over to load up our shows the night before each of Verne's shows and trounced him. Although he had good shows, better than what he might've been promoting in the midwest, he barely drew flies and we won that war."

Verne's first show saw him defend the AWA title vs Dick the Bruiser, co-mained by Lou Thesz vs Larry Hennig along with the Vachons, Crusher, Blackjack Lanza and other stars. Mike's opening match the night before advertised Don Leo Jonathon and Prince Iaukea vs Ray Stevens and Pat Patteson. "How was that for an opening match?! Each of our matches to battle Verne really could've been main events anywhere else in the world. We had Blassie taking on Dory Funk for the NWA title, Mascaras vs Gordman and also Bull Ramos in mask vs hair matches, Dory Funk Sr and Terry Funk teaming up, Fabulous Moolah defending her women's title, Paul Jones and Nelson Royal coming in to team, Danny Hodge, you name it. Sam and several NWA promoters sent us a lot of stars. Even Lonnie Mayne came down from Don Owen. The Assassins from the south which was my first time meeting Tom Renesto, who'd later become my booker in the late 70's."

More on why they failed:

The L.A. office began experiencing problems, growing pains, etc when longtime stars Blassie and Tolos were vocally disgruntled with their historic L.A. Coliseum paydays in August of '71. Blassie wanted to leave in the worst way he said, and later that year accepted Vince Sr's offer to move back and work permanently for WWWF. Blassie had his notable title feud the next year with Pedro Morales and soon the great pairing of him and Lonnie Mayne as a colorful WWWF team, managed by Lou Albano. Tolos was turned face, drawing record crowds and a renewed partnership with Baba and All Japan wrestling that resulted in a great grudgematch on the last Olympic Aud show of 1971, pitting Tolos and "new friend" Giant Baba against the ultimate tag team heels in Kenji Shibuya and Massa Saito. In 1972, when Tolos wanted also to get away allegedly from Lebell over monetary issues and "lack of proper pay," Lebell renewed a friendship with Vince McMahon Sr that later in the decade would result in the figurehead position on paper of being "WWWF V.P" replacing Willie Gilzenberg's name. That title was scraped when Senior was convinced to shorted the name to WWF and join the NWA. Soon, Shinma Sr was named WWF VP. But the McMahon Sr/Lebell/NJPW connection became great as Inoki would send talent to Lebell to finesse them for appearing in MSG, McMahon would send names and acquisitions like Judo champ Allen Coage to train for pro with Gene Lebell in L.A. before using him in WWWF/WWF or sending him to Inoki, with favors flying all over. Lebell in 1971 and 1972 had worked from a Japan standpoint, primarily with Baba and the JPW office putting the UN National belt on Inoki twice at the Olympic(once vs Tolos, once vs the first Dan King Krow Kroffat) and telling Los Angeles fans that any show involving Japanese wrestlers was "being beamed back live to Japan tv." In truth, the shows were taped and shown in Japan at a later time after post-production.

Business behind the scenes and crowd-wise began a slow descent. Strongbow and Moto were gone as bookers, and a variety were tried(even Tolos briefly but John said he hated booking) until Atlanta genius Leo Garabaldi came in to replace the horrendous booking of Louie Tillet. Louie was well-liked until he began putting himself on tv as an actual wrestler, looking like a late 50's old poor imitation of Blassie when the ever-growing Hispanic Southern California crowds were clamoring for someone younger and more credible in the ring. Tillet had gone from simply replacing Jeff Walton in the fictitious on-camera role as "NWA representative," to America's champion beating Tolos, Greg Valentine, Choi Sun and others as crowds dwindled in mid 1975 and he got the ax to be replaced with fellow southern booking mind and star, Leo Garabaldi.

But the fan perception beginning in spring of 1975 with the departing Tolos, Firpo and yes, the great Ed Carpentier; was that Lebell was devoid of stars. Sure, Tolos would come back for several months to help out; but just the thought of megastars like Tolos and Blassie being permanently replaced in the fans minds with Piper and Guerrero cost the office. Ticket prices were often lowered and to try to make more money, the once every-other biggest cards of the region at the MSG of Los Angeles(The Olympic Aud)went from every other Friday, to every Friday.

 

[snuffbox]

That's a lot of someone else's thoughts and opinions.

 

[BruiserBrody]

That's a lot of someone else's thoughts and opinions.

Otherwise known as facts?

I could have summarized and pretended I knew the history of LA wrestling off the top of my head or something.

 

[Valeyard]

I'm wary to go all-in on "someone else's thoughts and opinions" = facts, though.

 

[snuffbox]

I'm wary to go all-in on "someone else's thoughts and opinions" = facts, though.

Careful, this is how you end up having some dumb "quote" or whatever attributed to you by Kamala.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

I'm wary to go all-in on "someone else's thoughts and opinions" = facts, though.

That's pretty much how history works without access to third party notation, and there's no way that a promoter during the territory days would allow an outsider to jot down records. If the box office receipts match those opinions, however, then they're holding more water than you're giving them credit.

 

[snuffbox]

Not to speak for Vale, but my point was more how tiresome it is to have certain posters who constantly repost stuff (which, on a shared internet, we can all look at and/or read anyway) along with the occasional mindless ad hom attack of others. Nothing against Mike Lano. It's a good, informative article that can be read in its entirety by clicking on the link. My problem was with the shitposting. I believe Brody and Kamala are fully capable of sharing their own thoughts without the bizarre need to try to please whoever else is online at the moment and/or desperately come off as a 'edgy'.

 

[BruiserBrody]

I have accepted I am wrong at all times regardless. Write too much, Write too little, post topical things in the right spots and still get shit on. Etc

I thought I was doing a service by cutting the rather long article down to the points of interest.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Moral, Brod, is people don’t want you post anything except Wal Mart work stories, I guess.

 

[Valeyard]

I don't care but I understand what snuff's talking about. Stuff that for me is just my tendency to want to read the whole thing after pieces of it anyway.

That's pretty much how history works without access to third party notation, and there's no way that a promoter during the territory days would allow an outsider to jot down records. If the box office receipts match those opinions, however, then they're holding more water than you're giving them credit.

I'm speaking in a much broader sense of the statement and how that's rather dangerous. Besides it's why phrases like "according to" exist.

 

[snuffbox]

I have accepted I am wrong at all times regardless. Write too much, Write too little, post topical things in the right spots and still get shit on. Etc

I thought I was doing a service by cutting the rather long article down to the points of interest.

I have commented on, liked, and appreciated A LOT of your own posts about wrestling. A hundred times and more. But I doubt I have ever made up ridiculous things about you or attacked you personally. I've said negative things about Vince McMahon and Elon Musk because they don't deserve defense, they are trashy godawful people. Also, you are not them. Kamala, you are not them either. Pretending to the victim when you're doing quite well, in both real life and online, is never a good look and I doubt it makes you feel all that great either. You should both feel good about yourselves and your own thoughts/opinions when you share them. Folks like McMahon and Musk are not worthy of you. I don't really know either of you but I know this: those two do not measure up to either of you.

 

[Valeyard]

Sounds like some ableist talk about what Vince or Elon can or can't do to me. #DoBetter

 

[snuffbox]

They can SUCK IT

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770474457561211007

Maybe John McAdam’s assertion that Gorilla Monsoon was secretly a super shady character wasn’t entirely off.


(What a miscarriage of justice this post is)

 

[Hawk 34]

HIGHLY UNLIKELY