The Attitude Era Thread Vol 1

[Valeyard]

Unforgiven has Angle/Austin in the immediately post-9/11 audible match. Angle in red, white, and blue in Pittsburgh winning the title and getting the big celebration is a great moment. It also has an incredible Jericho/RVD match, a really solid Rhyno/Tajiri match, and Edge/Christian (with Christian's awesome old entrance). But it also has Kronik/BOD, so I guess mileage could vary.

I love most of Invasion. RVD/Hardy is awesome and E&C/Storm and Awesome is really good. Has the best example of clashing styles with Raven/Regal too. What legit hurts it the most is no Heyman in the booth.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I think there's an argument to be made from a match quality standpoint, that 2001 is best year for WWF PPVs. It's hard to think of another year of WWF shows where there are no bad PPVs (although there is the insanely forgettable post WrestleMania stretch from Backlash through King of the Ring). Vengeance '01 isn't great either but kind of holds a weird place as one of the only December PPVs that was important storyline was. But you still got 6 to 8 shows that range from solid to excellent. I doubt there's another year in the monthly PPV era with that level of quality.

No one would argue that 2000 wasn't better but there were more stinker PPVs.

 

[Valeyard]

Summerslam '01 is an incredible show on its own, but every show had at least two or three matches that carry shows to me. Like from when HHH got hurt to the end of the year or so had some really great stuff. The invasion itself just taints everything.

I still mark for the Nitro graphics when they introduce the WCW guys at Wrestlemania 17 though.

 

[Brocklock]

Other than King Of The Ring and WM (Although I don't think WM 2000 is a horrible show and the ladder match pushes it to good imo), WWF was pretty consistent with their PPVs in 2000 up until September which is when the tv started going downhill as well. Royal Rumble, No Way Out, Backlash, Judgment Day, Fully Loaded, and Summerslam are all good to great shows. No Mercy is a good enough show, but Unforgiven, Survivor Series, and Armageddon are all pretty bad to forgettable.

2000 and 2001 are pretty comparable for good PPV's I think. 2000 might beat out 2001 depending on if you really like WM 2000 and don't care for Invasion, Survivor Series, or Vengeance 2001

 

[Valeyard]

As soon as Steph got creative power and they fucked up Angle/HHH it was all over.

 

[Brocklock]

Yeah I was gonna make a snarky comment, but I couldn't think of one. As soon as Kreski left and she got power, it was over and the WWF/E still hasn't really recovered from a creative standpoint despite a couple periods where it looked like they could.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

I never bought into the idea that Steph should have left HHH for Angle during that program, but it could've been stretched out a bit longer for sure. The end of 2000 was also when Austin made his return and Rikishi did the "I did it for the Rock" heel turn that ruined his career, so it was a perfect storm of lame to outright bad booking choices made up for with the overall best in-ring product the company had ever produced (up to that point).

Kreski was the rare case of a Hollywood writer coming in and making the product better in almost every way. In a perfect world, he's never replaced as head of creative, or at least is given a similar role in another company that's trying to get itself off the ground.

 

[strummer]

Steph and Angle had negative chemistry together when they were put together as "business partners" the very next month. It wasn't there at all so it probably wouldn't have been there if she turned on HHH.

But as soon as Steph took over on creative the tv became instantly boring and paint by numbers. Especially the midcard who just started trading wins and losses and spinning in circles. A trend that continues 21 years later

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1088502642282614784

I somehow have no memory of a post SNL/pre Anchorman David Koechner doing a proto Right to Censor gimmick.

 

[Fall of Epic]

He talked about it on Jericho's podcast years ago.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417657409665966081

I do not remember the Hardys going over LOD 2000 during their first mini-push in '98. This was nine months or so before their actual push that took and established them as one of the greatest tag teams of their generation.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417325571147804685

Pogs were still around in 2001!?

Glad they included such iconic figures and moments of the Attitude Era like the Brooklyn Brawler, BikerTaker choking Shane McMahon, and the crappy Sgt. Slaughter-Triple H Boot Camp Match from 3+ years earlier.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417965734244847617

 

[Valeyard]

There is so much depression in that pic.

 

[BruiserBrody]

Blackmailed Taker teams with his mortal enemies.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Someone's kink is Carmella cosplaying as Al Snow.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

**safe search off**

 

[BruiserBrody]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426670215258017801

If Lord Al wouldn't have balked at taking a massive pay cut where does he fit in once DX and tits dominate the non-Austin portions of the show?

Keith Langston on the Greetings From Allentown Live pod always portrays him as a sex position expert, which is now running through my head.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

...but he was one of the most over lowercard guys in '99/2000...

 

[909]

And he was good

Hardcore Holly Defense Force in the building

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

That meme is inaccurate also cause Vince McMahon never really tried that hard to get Bob Holly over even when Holly was challenging for the World Title at the 2nd or 3rd biggest show of the year.

I feel like Hardcore Holly actually might have been helped if he went to WCW at some point. I feel like he would've fit in nicely with the TV Title division. Later on, I could see doing well in TNA. Look I've read Hardcore Holly's book (and it's actually really good. 2nd tier of wrestler autobiographies) and biggest mistake he ever made was being loyal to a company that rarely gave two craps about him. Followed closely by (allegedly) stealing other wrestler's pain pills.

By the time, WWE finally got rid of him in 2009, there really wasn't a place for him in wrestling. Maybe he would've kind of fit in ROH but Bob Holly's not gonna go to ROH.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

That meme is inaccurate also cause Vince McMahon never really tried that hard to get Bob Holly over even when Holly was challenging for the World Title at the 2nd or 3rd biggest show of the year.

I will defend Holly challenging Brock at Rumble 2004. Lesnar broke Holly's neck in '02, the show was clearly built on Genoa going all the way in the Rumble itself, and Brock/Holly wouldn't have overshadowed the masturbatory HHH/HBK Last Man Standing match for the WHC.

It gave the champ an easy night, settled up some continuity, and protected the two bigger marquee matches of the night. Win-win-win.

 

[Sex Machine Gun]

I remember when I came back to wrestling in 1998 after tuning out in 95-96 and exclaimed, "THAT'S Bob Holly?!" Same with Scott Steiner.

Haaaay, waitasec, BOTH got stupid swole and cut off/colored their hair while I was away from wrestling! Both even wrestled in the same kind of gear with the short-style tights! (Inception sound)

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

It gave the champ an easy night, settled up some continuity, and protected the two bigger marquee matches of the night. Win-win-win.

According to Holly's book, him and Brock were supposed to have a 15 minute match but it got cut down to six minutes almost literally right before they went through the curtains to make room for more Triple H-HBK wankery.

I like the idea of Hardcore Holly wanting revenge for his broken neck but they should've given it just a little more build up to make it seem like Holly wasn't just going to immediately get steamrolled.

 

[Brocklock]

I like Hardcore Holly a lot, but even I wouldn't of wanted to see him go 15 minutes with Brock. The Rumble match served it's purpose. 2004 was the wrong time for a Holly push though. They should've really took a chance on him in 99/early 00 rather than just keep him in the Hardcore division.

Then again, if that happened we wouldn't of got his weirdly fun mid 00's Velocity workhorse run where he's having a series of good tv matches with Stevie Richards.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

I think Holly was a fine talent but roster was so loaded in '99/'00 that I don't see who you push down the card to make room for him. Weirdly, I think maybe the time for him to get past the midcard was '06 after the RVD match with the crazy cut on the back. He could've at least had a similar run to Finlay during the era (though I guess maybe it would've been redundant with Finlay being there). IIRC, they turned him faceish tweener after the match when they should have kept him as a nasty tough as nails heel. Just play up his IRL reputation as a emotionally volatile tough guy.


Honestly, I don't think he deserved that much better of a career than he got. Some dudes ceiling is just grizzled midcarder and that's perfectly fine.

 

[Brocklock]

SEND HHH DOWN THE MIDCARD AND MAKE IT THE HHHOLLY REIGN OF TERROR

But for real, he was getting over with the Super Heavyweight stuff. They could've tried him at least. Similar to how they tried Val Venis out in late 99 and gave him matches with Foley, Austin, and Rock.

 

[Big Papa Paegan]

By the time he was hot in 2000, they had the Radicalz and the Hardys/Dudleys/E&C and HHH/Rock and Taker's return and...yeah. No way he gets a big singles push in 2000.

 

[Cackling Co Pilot Kamala]

Only thing I could see is maybe Hardcore Holly taking Ken Shamrock's role in '99 WWF when Ken Shamrock was just blatantly pining to go back to MMA but that spot isn't really THAT much higher than what Hardcore Holly's placement on the card was.

After reading his book and listening to JR's podcast on him, I'm glad that the wrestling industry has a lot less dudes like Hardcore Holly in it today.